The Mind Illuminated archive

Stronghold 4 April 2010

Automated transcription

Yes, Pam. Question that it's an thinking because you might like to expand on it. Spinning easter the resurrection, you're coming to life the live the the transformation from the dark to the light from the call to the wall, this an ancient aviation process that the earth goes through each and every year. And buddhism, I think also has this kind of transformation that that one goes through, when one follows the pre and meditate and so so and I was wondering if we like to or would find something there to explain on?

Yes. Well yes. Easter Easter usually coincides very closely to the first stay of spring. Which is in at least in the more temperate climates that seems as though the world's being reborn out of out of its own ashes, cold at winter. And they're, of first the whole theme of resurrection because the Easter is really... It's not about the crucifixion and sort after his direction. Right? And that does have a very direct counterpart in to dis. I I would suppose everybody is aware of that, but, you know, as buddhist we should probably.

Celebrate easter because it is so much a part it what it represents it's symbolic so much. What is so much a part of what the practice of buddhism is and is actually about which is that transformation, but dying to an old way of being. And the resurrection are completely new way of being. And on the third day, which is today. Jesus as rose from dead and send it in into heaven and renamed their thereafter. And is isn't that a very very much the idea that we have about becoming a away and becoming enlightened that we, you know, having the send to hell rise again into and to heaven and we stayed there.

And the hell being symbolic out the all of the dissatisfaction and pain struggles that life has in for a person up to the point of their away pain. And then their awakening represents the the permanent liberation for those things. So I see it's a very direct one to one correspond. And as you are probably all too for aware since I had dwell time it so much in recent months. That it really is what we are trying to achieve is a kind of death of the cell. And and this is it it has many those qualities.

Doesn't matter of fact some time very wise faces there's had that what we... What we were attempting to do. Mean we take up the practice that haven't enlightenment money identity in tradition. Not just the bit. But what what you're doing is attempting to have that experience that we are all going to have at the time of the physical death out our body. But we're trying to have it earlier on so that we can enjoy the transformation that it brings about. That's the into a new state being. And there is the experience of the the death of ego in the sense that the belief that to mind holds and it's having that kind of nature is we die to that false belief.

And then we... Our body doesn't die, her mind doesn't cease to function. But we find ourselves in a new way of being without that without that secret, which is very much like the the ascension into heaven sitting on the right hand of of the father that's without that sense of separate, than we are in in the heaven of such of they one this was what is about that segregation. And We and no longer suffer the suffering goal behind us. And this suffering can get rather acute as we approach. That. So I think, you know, there is, maybe not so strong parallel but something in with parallel but was the Christian focus on that increased the fiction.

Because there there is a certain degree of suffering as we approach that giving up what we all of our lives could been attached to. And once we go through that, though we're done with it, at least in that form completely. It's you, over it's time with. Oh, yes. I think I think Easter and I think the the the comparison with spring is very apt and the idea a kind of resurrection that's a far more useful way of syncing ben. It's being re reborn to start this all over again. From being a child sometime in the future.

Do you have any other thoughts on that comparison? Specifically except that one has the sense control extraordinarily deep this whole. The you know, you know, this medicine and the connection between the human spirit and the earth and its processes is both processes. The lifespan span the span of the earth It's this incredible connectedness that one senses. He was a long. Soon that goes with outside. But when did dwell in these thoughts, fits maybe to we moved into the awareness once again it. It's extraordinary death in the beginning of time and the darkness to the light and will beginning to the end of the engine meeting.

This great circle. Makes week fix i. And so this this day that we celebrate brain in our own ways this is a reflection on this very deep process that call versus. Where do the easter eggs? Yeah fertility. Well, know Tar and Christianity that... Months. Oh holidays or Cut particular day. Yeah. And Easter is movable because. Those according to the moon. That's right. And and in Buddhism, all the all the... Oh... Yeah. It's a lu. That's what we're celebrating today. You know, that was a cut lunar deck.

But so the... It's like real old, real old and the eggs fertility Fertility and you know, and so it's it's a pretty And they were very wise, the fathers of the church. They just said, we'll look. Everybody celebrating on this day. Let's put on college. I think they did have with with the all Saints day and Christmas and everything else... And places. Yeah. And on places that were old places of worship. And that's kinda good because yeah it helps to tie everything together. It's too bad that when we see these things as being so totally with happened.

I don't think we do, but at least I at least I think pretending in the direction of that seeing things as being so different insane, but common this and there's similarities and all things. But to be that society As large would differentiate ourselves. So meaning and attached to those very aspects of dogma that that the delineate our differences. Because everything do so Well, at least had he's we're all going to top with the same mountains. But. An number of different sides to go up. I mean like the idea of the resurrection because you know, it's not it's reborn into the same old same.

But it's starting over and completely different. Right leaving leaving behind development suffering and the danger and age mutant and all of each other thing. I think there's also the of the others. Yeah. Is are the distracted place. That's right. Yeah. Now. That's a. It's a bo software at. And Jesus and and he forgave them as he sign on the prompts ava. That's very very important. Far more important than what was done to him. Entities forgive for they know not what they they not they. We both for the understanding that it was the ignorance that least be behind.

That's right. And and that's very interesting because in the practice of patience, that's exactly what we do. When we find our ourselves. Have afflicted by circumstances or by people by organizations or whatever. Is to understand where this is coming from. And when you find yourself angry if somebody abused and mistreated by somebody to understand that this is kind convey pain and their suffering and their ignorance. And no matter how we might ordinarily tend to interpret behavior of others this that is harmful or disturbing to us if we look deeply and we'll realize that that person rather than being Evil is another suffering being who is creating their own creating their own pleasure and satisfaction, which They can't...

They can't grasp but I can't hold on to and it is experiencing a version to the suffering that they feel and their life and their actions are just totally misguided attempts to find their way out of their own suffering the dissatisfaction. Totally changes, and that's exactly that that's pertaining now, or they know not what they do. And when I to it, let's speak because my own pain in my own suffering in my own ignorance, And then I need to forgive me he's still. Yourself. Yeah that's right. Great.

You need to forgive ourselves and accept ourselves and you know, it's it's interesting. It's like so many things that. You start with that and then you conduct with that. Because you have to begin by understanding yourself. The way you are before you can start understanding and forgetting and practicing patients with others, But then at your done words for while, you come back and discovered there's still a lot that you have yet to accept and forgive in yourself. And so it's like all the practice that you do with forgiving others can now you can now bring that home and apply that to yourself.

Complete cycle. And they met a no that a su that we did last night. You know, it Begins with a hollow, which is May Id Free and and danger, but it goes through to everything else in the universe, but when we do, that met practice as the meditation, we usually can't back to our cell. Because that is so important. We start practicing mindfulness very deeply. And we discovered all the things that our mind is doing. It's so easy to judge. And that's why it's so important in the practice of mindfulness right from the beginning to learn not to be judgmental because you start out being mindful at a fairly superficial level of things outside yourself and what your body is doing and things like that.

That as it goes deeper and deeper and you become mindful of the processes of mind itself. It's very easy to become set up and be irritated and judgmental towards yourself, and that's something that you have to get past to they... You come to point where you get really tired of your mind and it's opportunities and and they. And on the one hand that tired is very important. That's actually that is actually one of the stage of the progress that by all these different stages that are laid out. There is a particular stage where you see things the way they are.

When you feel trapped by. And you experienced that kind of its guys called the knowledge of disgust. You're just totally set up with this, and that's important. It's also absolutely necessary that you get past that and get to a place of and acceptance because after after the stage of knowledge of discuss. Eventually, the stage that immediately proceeds awakening is where you have knowledge of anonymity for its formation. You're lying it's just doing the same old thing all the time. Generating saying old ideas attaching to things and just, you know, you're looking for...

You you've discovered this tremendous degree of stillness and you're longing aim to complete the journey. And your mind keeps keeps doing its thing keeps generating it's reality and grasping to it and then just, you know, but you actually get to the point where you you stop judging and struggling against that had kind place of. So we go through all of these different stages. Very very important to understand and to allow it to happen and also recognize it, it's only it's only a stage and it will perhaps and you move beyond it.

Remember many years ago, I advised a seminary student was. One of the things I used to do every morning for period time is the stations of across. And, you know, somebody if somebody wanted to they could probably do really interesting corollary between the station vi withdrawals and and the pre crucifixion and the whole process of weight and like there's a lot of interesting parallel, set that all true. Paper little put lectures that bad that send me good together. I kept briefed with I'll white bags, space my station, He said i said in my asking was it's it's been too many years.

Me it accurately. Like there's been gaps in my memory. It's smarter that I can recall being being struck by the the potential for that. I never did go to the point. Drawing that parallels myself. I don't know maybe to somebody else here it. I'm just curious because, you know, they're twelve stations of the cross. There's twelve stages of dependent origin. Twelve seems to be a real crucial number in all kinds of process. You know, I don't I couldn't tell you the status of the cross. I know the one.

Last one's the resurrection. Yeah. Essentially saying yeah you're right. It was twelve... These numbers are recur over and over again Seven is very important number two. It's four. And there's the ones that kinda get left out is hardly any nine. Stations of the cross you give a little bit of a brief. Some other time, maybe. Or don't leave that for somebody else to be But... Yeah. I guess, what is in my mind is that I think underlying all of these things is the same same journey in the same path and it's represented sometimes very some volatility and poetic, other times very conceptually, did actively, you know, But however, it's presented beneath it wise the facts of the experience that the the real experience of people have actually had and their own personal spiritual journey.

And and the ways that that process has been recounted and shared with others. So whether it's a really cerebral an analytical sort of thing here whether it's a really poetic abdul journey. I think that because it's roots are the same, but the process that human beings go through them because we're all the same when we have to go through the same process. That if we if we're interested enough and carrying enough, we can look in any of these presentations, and we can find that that we can find the beneath the apparent differences the description of the same journey.

And maybe points to something else too, which is the emptiness of all god's descriptions. Because whatever whatever an individual experiences is on that journey. There is the the thing that the mind does in taking taking the experience and telling the story of it and making sense of it and interpreting it in terms of the the worldview, the cultural view, the society that they're part of their own personal previous predisposition and they on so forth. So every one of these descriptions is constructed out of It has two parts to it.

Really. One is the direct experience of the person that makes the journey, which culminate in the stopping of the mind and the stopping of this constructed world. I mean, that's really that's really where we come to that allows our minds to tend to undergo this transformation is is stockton in the mind stopped in the world. But then it's the dairy mind that has stopped. It's the very mind that has to stop in order to reach the culmination of experience, which then turns around and tries to s the size the description and x explanation of it.

And it generates that explanation out of its own previous constructions, which it didn't make up all itself. It got all this input from from from the time of child able to communicate with others. Their mind is shaped by everybody there in contact with shaped and reshaped throughout process like. So that's the raw materials. That's the the the the bricks and the mortar and building blocks and timbers and everything that they create this story out of But what's creating the story is the very mind that was not present at the time.

Because the mind had stopped. And that point another very interesting thing in this process, What are we? And At first is the physical level we we are this body, and then we turn in inward and we are this mind. And then as we come to understand the nature of this mind, that then it's this mind that we... It's this minds activities that we abandoned to be able to return to this line and have this mind function in a different way. So what are we or what what what makes us out. What is this other aspect of what makes us up?

That leaks, they links these two and and bridges this place in between where the transformation occurs, do you follow what I'm saying, I am my body in my mind. Okay. I'm not really my body. Okay. Now my mind going to stop. And then when my mind starts up again, it's and start functioning in a totally different way. What bridges the gap between those two? And we realized that And and you can you can begin to touch this just reflecting on your own experience but there is there is something independent of all of the stuff that you're That is the object of your consciousness.

It's the object of your awareness. And that's what stops. There's no more algebra. And part of what is the object of your awareness is that that aspect of the duality that is i the watcher if server. So all of that goes away, but does that name that there is an annihilation a cessation of a a total cessation of everything. And if you looked at, mystical experience it's usually described as pure consciousness, not not annihilation. Although there's some there are some traditions in which it's spoken up as a forgetting or a gap.

But it's a gap. It's a gap and inc. So And then the mine starts up again, only now it's in a completely different state. And it won't ever go back to functioning quite the way it did before. And that's that's how you know that he really made that transformation. And it's not really important what happens in that transformation because after all for some people, they can't even remember it. It's like they've never happen. It's like a gap. And the interesting thing about gaps, is sometimes you cannot even know there was a gap.

So it's not the experience itself. But something happens as a result of the mind stopping in that way. That when it starts up again, it it starts up in in a new way of functioning. And so That's the that's the death of birth or the the death and the resurrection. That really need for. But it's not a soul. Would you try to say what is this in us? And and there is there's is a notion of the soul very interesting thing Though if you look at Christian mystic, their notion and the soul is very different than what you might hear reached about on a in a an sunday church service where the soul seems to be the same thing as the ego self as the front phenomenal self is in mind with all its memories and predisposition and ideas and most especially the sense i.

Mh. The soul is acc with this sensor of eye. And that part that we're talking about, it's not that kind of soul at all. Because that's actually that's the part that disappears. That's the part that stops. And so that's that's not that's not yet. And When we look at that, well, you know, as if you look at the accounts of every tradition, but, you know, in the buddhist tradition, where where there accounts of that experience you find that it has a nature of being a pure consciousness, experience. And that thin and this is a very difficult thing to describe and these are the words that are used because the person often, not always often says well I was conscious or not I was conscious.

There was consciousness we're but there was no cell and there was no object. There was no duality that was the cessation the due l. There was a direct variant of the fact that both the stealth and all the objects that expand are con of the mine. And so the essence of the experiences the mind stopped from talk, but there was something that experience the knowledge of the fact of it. And so one kid can say, well, is is this consciousness now? But then it name that, it depends how much on what means one means by consciousness.

Is one very famous sutra in which louis was a d by the name of Sat. I thought it was interesting. His name was Satya decide me my. But I've he was going around saying well, I've gotta figure out what is reborn is consciousness. You know that and so what he had done is taken Dean indiana, which is... We'll have to look at that word in just a moment, but he taken the idea of A consciousness aspect of how we proceed to herself and said, that's it. That's what continues from one life to the next. And in his mind, it became the self but was missing because the self is sold.

And then when the buddha heard about this, he went and talked to Satya and he said you foolish mad. When you ever heard me say that. You know, as a matter of that he taught one of his earliest teachings. Is second, the second recorded teaching that we have is is the the su where he taught that there was no soul, and he goes through the five aggregates and says the aggregate consciousness, which is being yada. He says is V. Is it is is Indiana the cell and there is no cell Yada is is permanent. It's it's empty.

It's It's suffering and it's is not it's not worthy to be... There is no self and the consciousness sense. This being refers to the dual listed consciousness. It refers to the consciousness. And what's the important about this dual is it there's an object of consciousness and there's a sense of someone who is conscious. Someone who is aware? So so we have on the one hand. This ordinary kind of consciousness, which involves being conscious of something and being someone who is conscious of it. And then the descriptions of the chance of the process of transformation out of which a person comes changed.

In which the only thing that is only familiar thing that's ever referred to is consciousness itself, which is spoken out as being non of being pure of being devoid of the sense of self inc object. So left puzzling, or what is that? And The important thing is that it is that that which is totally un. And that which is not separate and that which is un changing. And so when you examine your mind in meditation, as you keep seeing more and more clearly what's going on in the process of your mind going a bit deeper, you know, things begin to come into focus.

Then you will start to become aware of that one. Quality of your experience, which is changing, and which is unaffected by the content. Experience. That's what you're looking for. And in order to see it, first of all, you have to become aware that the content of your conscious experience is always changing. Not only is it always changing, but it is a conditioned projection of your mind. And not only is it a constantly changing condition, projection of your line, But it is a company why sometimes very subtle, but a sense of of unease dissatisfaction.

Non peaceful. But behind that, behind that is something that does not change is not condition. Is not is is not a projection open line. And in fact, it's what it's what remains when the line cease us to. Project. But isn't that that's my concept of soul. Well, I except that the problem with soul is the alternative spelling of soul instead s o u l is s o l e. Now you'll go through me. Go through. There is a stage and it's it's a classically describes state, you know, Some of you may have already experienced this.

I think so it's called the witness. And you you as you get closer and closer to having a direct awareness with what I'm talking about. What happens is you see all the contents of conscious experience in their imp and their and and they're satisfactory nature. But when you're in the state of the witness, that is still the sense that the witness is separate. The in there is some subtle sense in which I me in mine. Onto that. Mh. And that's that's that's the... You know, you've gotten rid of half of the problem.

But the other half is gigantic. That still do list. It's it's still dual. And is this... you know, as long as you're in the state of the witness where there seems... And and the witness is a good description because it's just it's a pure witnessing. It doesn't do anything. Doesn't change anything. It's independent of what your witnesses but it seems to be self existent. So witness or arises and you're you have this experience of being with that That's very wonderful. It's a very important wonderful special stage in the process.

But it is one more stage that needs to be that needs to be passed beyond as well. So not sure how I got there. Anyway. So this is this is is still one more thing that we need to recognize and understand. Because at first, at first that state of the witness, it's so peaceful. It is so satisfying. It's so illuminati. Is so a high. U. I can see all this is arising and passing your way and you could see the emptiness of everything And this is my true self. I guess what i fine. Okay. We still identified with shoe cell.

You say that soul The problem with so l is that it's... It carries with bid of s so l e still being separate independent What we're looking for is that which we see is not unique separate, but it's universal. That you know, that's what's looking at realize, and it's no different. Than what's looking at my eyes or else's. And it is it is the basis the ground under if you think about is a really simple idea intellectually. It's the ground of reality. It is the only ground of reality because actually, everything that you know.

You know because you're conscious of it or else, it's only known by. By that, I mean, you know, you see my hat. Right? Direct experience with the paul of my hip. You cannot see the back in my hand. You inferred that the back of my hand exist. You're in a forest. And when you leave before you infer that the trees are still there. But the only need the basis of reality, the only basis in reality is it is that direct experience that consciousness of. Yeah. How can we be or aware I'm giving out to witness without with.

You can't be. And that's that's the kind of that's the kind of circular thinking that in my naturally goes to is that, well, And that's why when you get to the witness state, you still have that experience of being being the witness separate. That somebody's got to be experiencing that. But, you know, you can... There there are a lot of techniques you can use to touch into that when you're doing your meditation practice. When you doing walking meditation? In the walking there's only the walking in.

You got your eyes open. In the scene there's only the same. If you can't let go of there being best duality of the Seer and the scene and have this for moment the experience out and see that's all there is. That is the reality. It's not some representation or something else. It's not something it's witnessed by something else that is through reality. It arises. The scene arises and saying passes wet, the hearing no sound. The hearing arises and the hearing passes way. The mind thinks about what it's heard, the thinking arises in the thinking process away.

So in all would be saying, there is... Even you can touch into that. And you can get taste where you're going. If you practice that, I mean, you can't go out and necessarily do it. Right? Away. But if you spend time trying to recognize and realize directly that in each agrees six sensory modalities, including, you know, thinking and feeling and things like that. That that indian feature goes. They're use no need or the experience or with the mind is positive. Each experience food pure in and of itself.

And the consciousness of the experience doesn't nec and from its own side that there'd be some or something. That knows that object. It's just the arising of hearing and the passing away of hearing. And the arising recognition of the herd of perception and the passing the way of perception. And the rising of the feeling of... Oh, I like that, or I don't want that and the passing away of of liking or not a lightning. And the arising of a thought the thought of creating, oh, I hope that happens again or order oh.

I will do something to make that happen yeah. That sort of thing or if it's unpleasant, oh, I will do something to make the unpleasant necessarily away. This this is the trick part of all because that thought is all full of the story of self and object. If you can just have the experience of the thought arising and passing Ap. And we and last one things that we need to practice doing. Is observing the thoughts that arise. You're you're sitting there meditating you, by angle sign uncomfortable. I need to move it that is an opportunity.

To see that's not a problem, I guess anyway your meditation. When that father arises, seeing that thought. As it really is is an opportunity to help to have a taste of the the final goal the experience you're going towards is. It's just seeing the true nature of reality independent of its mind, mine constructive element. But personally, when we're meditating it, it takes it takes practice to get there because you sit there in your very objective of this and that other the thing, but then a thought comes up.

And we identify was a thought immediately or in motion you feel restless and patient and you identify that immediately and you yeah In that instant, you've gone out out of the phase of mindfulness. Did push my right now. I got started talking. Does anyone have anything that they would like to say? It sounds like the special in that moment in between the box. In that gap. That the moment in between the thought thoughts is very, very special because of the opportunity that it provides us. But it isn't necessarily restricted to the space between thoughts.

In other words, the absence of thoughts is not not ultimately necessary. But until we until we are capable of non attachment to the thought. Them desperate where we have to aim for is the space between the thought, even more than that the space between the perceptions in the inside traditions, lot of emphasis but observing the arising and passing away of every individual perception. Because it is in the space between the passing away of one and the rice her necks of the next that you have the opportunity to to basically interrupt the steps of dependent origin.

And then that's where the stop in the line takes place. But that's just one one of them ways of getting there. Me I sometimes it sounds like soft description. So we gone on by some so way the cessation. Please like and others he sounds almost like this like, some sort of a special state. Mh. And it's it's just that the people from talk about especially stays is possible that it's just sound so way. They don't really i'll keep probably that way. Or Well, it it's very difficult to... It's very difficult to talk about.

It's very difficult to describe what is met. By nirvana. And as you say many times it's spoken up as a cessation I go behind that. There is probably most of the time that it's spoken about formally it's spoken about entirely and the negative in terms of what it is not. Though it is a cessation of becoming yet. Because becoming is becoming as exactly that process, that our minds do, constantly projecting us into the future and generating a world projecting a self the future and the world for self to be in into the future and that is that process of becoming cease.

It's also spoken out as a cessation of creating. Because craving is exactly the comp of mine operating at a such subtle level that it's very difficult to I mean, it takes a little bit of work that are kind aware of it, but it is craving that propel the becoming in the steps of attendant origin organization. Once there has been the arising of some experience as a result of contact with the sensor between a since organ and its object and and the mine, then there is a feeling pleasant for unpleasant, which causes creating to arise and creating maybe the desire version, but that craving then propel into the process of grasping where we make real the idea of self and whatever it is that we think is producing the pleasure pain for the cell and then would be becoming.

So Nirvana is the cessation of all of these steps which are dependent on each other in that one. To the other. So who can speak of as a cessation of the causes of our ordinary expand And we can speak to of it in terms of all of the things that it is not. Like it's it's un and it's condition. Way that has described. And I mean all kind, these are all told in import. And that's what we're meaning when you decide describe something entirely in terms of what it's not. And the description in Nirvana and and the enlightenment experience it are all in.

They're all a kind of ap which is where you define what it isn't. And so... And, you know, try to say what it is As you try to say something positive, your mind, is going to... The mind of the speaker is going to have to use language And the languages years is a symbolic representation of the way our minds ordinarily work. And so if somebody says something about something in a positive sense about Nirvana, your mind is going to interpret it in some familiar way. Like a state of mine. Except that it's a state of being not a state mind.

That would be the difference. But even to say that, it's a state of being not a stated line. Well, what does it mean to be a state of being in not state of mind? Remember it's the mind with all of his procession of states that's trying to figure out What it's like to not for forget to be absent? And it just can't do it. It is not possible for your mind. To conceive of anything in terms of the absence that deadline. And so we get in some subtle way or another the mind is still going to make it into something recognizable Well.

So it becomes a standard mind rather than being pain the absence of mine. Once again, the words, what do you mean by my? Some people when they say mine named consciousness, but when I say mind in the sense I'm talking specifically about mind that fabric and creates an understanding of the way things are. And you're fabric creating my can't fabric a model of no model. Okay. And so that's always going to be the problem. And so trying to understand trying to understand nirvana it's intellectually always runs into this problem.

And the closest that you can come, really is in these ap aortic statements, which are just statements of what it is not. Well, why do you need to talk about it at all, well there's some good reason. Somebody's hadn't experience in wow. I had an incredible experience with that data? Am I enlightened? Yeah And that's not an all an an uncommon thing. And the thing is that When your mind starts up again, it's going to tell story about what happened. And that story is going to be a story. No matter what.

And so So to try, there is a good reason to talk about it because it helps to know where you're going, Although it's not necessary. You know, you can definitely get somewhere without knowing it that's where you're going. But it's helpful. It does give you some way to to guide your direction. It that's also very helpful to know whether you're there or not if I send you out just go there, and you have no idea where you're going? How are you ever Bell you but right? I thought we were all enlightened to start with.

That's exactly right. Yeah. So we're already there. You're are ready there. That's right. Saved lot of yeah. Except the hear until you know that you're there. Might just will not be. Mh I have that Yeah. To be a pretty obvious benefit of having the experience of the witness of observer in terms of the bench depth having affluent. Mh. And being able to live life without a lot of truck frustration and then that great day and software out to move behind that into the place of... Say, sure awareness.

Mh. Scientists just giving up any shares. Yeah. What is the benefit Of spending time there. Of share awareness. Well which which seems to me to be what you were describing as Nirvana? Yes. The only the way that you have to think of this is you're looking for a permanent change and and the way your mind is. Now In the progress of insight, you kinda arrive at the stage of e entity towards formation, which you described pretty well just a moment ago. And which also is exactly if you do some talk practice?

This is this is what corresponds to the tenth stage. And if you meditate regularly, every day and sustain your son. You are in that you were in that state. You are in a state that you could be described as an excellent fact of enlightenment. But the difference is that it is a state, it is due to causes and conditions, and it is inevitable that those causes and conditions will fall away. And there are so many different ways that they can fall away. So that to achieve that state, you can out in the world filled with E M and a joyful place and you can you can say to yourself.

Why why would I ever want or need anything more than this? And in terms of the state that you're are in, You wouldn't. Why would you there is stone, but it's not permanent. It's vulnerable and it even vac in time. Like even if you sit for four hours a day and you do the deep tone, things are gonna happen that break through this condition say that you're in. And you're going to experience any experienced the vulnerability that you still have. But sooner later you're gonna get sick and you can't meditate anymore or, you know, need your your brain's thesis to function or all kinds of.

Or if you... During a terminal illness, you know, your ability to do all kinds of things become diminished. So it's not permanent. The interesting thing about The interesting thing is that when the mine stops and the way that we're talking about, it produces certain changes that are permanent. And not only that the more often you repeat that, the more firmly established changes the deep more deeply they penetrate. And so what is the put? In in the buddhist presentation of the process of the path.

Is we have that initial experience in Na nevada or I mean, even our words here to say an experience in but we'll call it that anyway. You have that initial experience with Nirvana, and that's called the past experience. Is you retained to the first stage of the enlightenment. And then to follow to follow the practice is then to reproduce that. Frequently. And each of those... Each of those times you reproduce the same experience. That's called a fruition. So you have the path experience, which produces a permanent transformation.

And then you have the physician experiences which tend to consolidate and deepen those and prepare you then for the next half experience. And the first half experience, when you came out of that, your mind had changed in the sense that you were no longer attached to the ego self the phenomenal self is being real a personality view. And of course at the same time, You cease to have any doubt about the dha and cease to believe in rights and rituals. And you can continue with the repeated fruition experience to strengthen that and and strengthen and deepen that.

But then at some point, you still have the... You still have pre as a part of you mind. And you need to do something to uproot that. And what you do, think of it this way. Think of it as Mine states. Okay. There is that these tradition experiences are mine states. Okay? And you go from your ordinary in the world stated mind, although it's now permanently changed because you had a a path band. And then you go into fruition state. And then you go back into being in the world and then you sit down meditate, and you have another tradition experience.

So you go back and forth between these two states. The comes of point where you say, okay. I still have all this training. I I still fine. My mind is all these mental states in their pure and they're unsatisfied because they are contaminated by a desire version. And I wanna do something about that. So you'd make the result Okay. I'm not going in information anymore. The next time I leave my ordinary state of mine yes once again to go to a completely new state just the way I did before. It's going to be a new past experience.

And I'm blank, I'm going to achieve the next step... The path we're creating trading has been largely desired. And so you work towards that. And then once again, you have experience of Nirvana, and it's the same experience in Nirvana, but the mine the mind that was brought to the experience. Is different in such a way that the mind the reforms after the experience is now different once again. Just like it was the first time, it's now on different once again in that the roots of creating are enormously.

And that's the second path. And then it too, you can repeat that experience and that once again is. It's not gonna produce produce any further transformation in your nearby. Deal go from? Everyday perception of the world, which is now quite wonderful or not only i not attached to health. But desire and immersion. Creating or, you know, they're they're hardly there at all. They're easy to deal with. They're not a big problem. And I can sit down to meditate date, and I can enjoy the fruition experience of this.

I can enter into that stain nirvana. The sooner later, Sooner later, the vest of trading that are in may are going to become too much more than I want. And I have to give up. I have to give up sitting down and going into that state of nirvana of the second path, if I want to undergo another profound transformation so I give that. I make the result. No more second path nevada for me. I'm done with that. Now I'm working on third pack. The next time I entered Nevada, I'm gonna right there with a mind that is going to come out of that expand changed once again.

And that's the is that different from the second path? Because it difference in the second pad with that intent. The the difference between second and third path is subtle. Because the in in the first half, you'd have strong craving and a birdie... A strong training. Version. And when you come when when you come out on the other side when you're now on... I have achieved second path. You still have grading, but it's very weak. Now third path you go into third path, with week training, and you come out a third path with no for the sense realm at all.

Okay. Okay. But you still... The only craving you have now is you still have the sense of being a obsessed existence. And this this is the status sort of a non turner. Described beautifully in the sutra by... I can't remember the B name. But he said, said i I know called this is that I still feel like I am this stack itself. But I need mine still rise. And and so that's what you with anna it carries with it. Still one particular kind of craving. And that's the training around this separate system.

You you know, you feel like it's a separately and you that's what's holding you back. That's what's keeping you from achieving the the whole state of an r and it might be. Well you see what these are, these Nirvana experiences, these cessation experiences. They They produce transformations. Like the the mind stops and the world stops. And then when it starts up again, it starts up again chain differently. Differently. And it starts up with this specific. Kind of difference or at least in this graduated path for spaces.

So I I kinda got a away your question this sale. But You don't, think I did. I head. Yeah. Well, As glad that I'm glad that I did. Yeah. And this is a great difficulty with the description of with the discussion of of any of these things. But where it's helpful is to recognize, especially when your medication begins to be become So strong. It's so clear that you're aware of exactly the things that I'm talking about when you're aware the fact that your mind is generating all of these objects of consciousness that are you in your world.

And when you become aware of the the duality that is inherent in that then you can begin to see the direction that you're going. Direction and you're going in your practice. Yes. We are already... We couldn't become enlightened that we weren't if we did already. Have this thing that we're taking in us. And as I said, it's there in every experience. But but in and every every experience, the the buddha mine is there, the diamond kayak is present. But we also have the minds projection of reality and the months projection as itself.

So we're not we're not going to sound place different and we're not looking for a change in the state of mind except. Once mind resumes, it will resume in a different state. So to be to be a stream, to have the mind of a strain entrant is to have a mind in a different state than the mind of the world that it hasn't achieved gene entry. To be a once return or a non retainer is to have a line in a different state than the mind of a stream or of world like But in that regard, where there is mine, mind, and and different date.

But when we're talking about the cessation of mine, it allows mine to become different. That's not state of mind. So Nirvana is not at state or not. It's state of non might. No it's a state of mindless stuff. View that's and. But it's not a state. It's it's an ida state oh non awareness or non consciousness or non d. It's cool. It is a state of being. Particular way of opinion. And we are always that way. So it's not, you know, that state that is underlying our state of being, but our mind is always causing us to count.

So in every instant of being, we are becoming and that is the problem. And so what we cease to become, then we're only. And that's where we would like to to to get to sure that we can make these changes.

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