The Mind Illuminated archive

TCMC 1 April 2010 Part 2

Automated transcription

Larry, long mute book box. Called zen by David, Darling. And I'm would recommend it to anybody. Very surprised if this person hasn't better known. I've never heard you right. But I The was the science of death the logic or rein. And of course, he speaking very, very clearly about the nature of cell. The true nature of so... And and so I really recommend that, but it's called Zen physics. Right David dark. To library here. Oh, great. One. Yeah. Pretty good. Okay. So that will be spun. He's kinda kinda astronomer our business.

But it's really... It's it's not a adults zen very much. Although those a few references. And it's not really about physics here much. Oh right. So it's not about then it's more like it's about. Physics and a very zen kind way. You know anyway. I I I I was stuck very much bright. Now how good it is how clear is and I talked that you might be interested in so Okay. So have you been practicing exchanging yourself for another? You have answer going. Any interesting anecdotes? Yes. In the process of maybe buying a house.

And I made an offer for someone, and I was so aware of not why he could cheat her. Mh. And I knew that truth hard situation in house have been on the market for long time. And I could not go below a certain point. I couldn't do it. I couldn't I couldn't cheat her. Even though i them to be the in not hard situation and I thought part of it is for me. Because I don't wanna live in her home. Need. When the feeling like I got it On unfair. Mh but I also feel, like I want her to be happy. Good. And if I've got the money, then what's...

So it was really a a very interesting thing because I had several different things going on and what should get a best deal, but I possibly can... Yes. Of course. All these different thoughts. And yet, I could be just disappointed that I can can't go I you had do it. And it was it was actually really sweet and wonderful. Glad hear that's all. And so she accepted your upgrade? She counter offered him. Has since come to an green and now have to do the inspector thing. So. That that is... Yeah. That is wonder.

You know, it's easy to get caught in the idea of you know, you don't wanna spend order than you have to. And if you examine that it's really interesting. I've it's got elements there my ego you know, I'll be a fool if on paying more than I have to. Right. Or or alright be foolish. To. This... And that's very strongly reinforce, but it It's wonderful to take in terms to the other person man. And what's fair? As if you or the other person? I not robert. Thank very. She comes the good word. And be the service of things about yourself and the process.

That's things yourself. And then part of it is that I have a lot of conflicting feelings about what's right. Yeah. But it's not just that is... And it can be very difficult to do when I feels was right because I do have so many thoughts about What if I need the money for something else? What it would? What if this? What if that? So we did the very interesting process we... And every one of those other thoughts is likewise you know, you can look into it and see what fears or what what desires or whatever versions yeah all the things that have been there.

And it just what you just said here is it's a good illustration of how much we are so often divided against ourselves. And if you just imagine, but it would be like in all of the parts of your mind were functioning it some beautiful hardening and living in a very ethical and moral way. And in and on self centered way is it's a way of achieving that. It's a way of bringing all of these different parts of yourself into. And to harmony and into alignment, which will make your life simpler and have your measured in in anyways.

I... For the last couple days, right. In particular, I've... I don't have good words for. but I've had a lot of energy. And I've been tackling all of the... Not tackling Normally, I'd be tackling them. I have been welcoming Doing the things that I've been resisting doing. Mh, like cleaning my house, like, wax all my furniture. Doing all my paperwork, organizing my files better stock My care everybody jealous. Yeah. But I mean, I resistance stuff like the plane. It's... You know? And and for the last few days, I've just dive right into it, and I feel good about it and I'm enjoying doing it.

And and and and and I'll redo a room and then every time I walk in the room, I smile and I feel good about it to taking... I'm even watering my flowers and it's it's been something... And it takes no effort. You're just getting ready for the weekend. What companies not wins nobody's he's coming. Oh, this is this is very wonderful what I do. Described as being president being the flow instead resisting get into all those under places that may get into. That's great. Did it did it said does it have an any connection with either the practice of exchanging yourself right other can you see any infection there?

Or with realizing how clinging to the illusion of being a itself is has contributed to problems and past. And and i thought that's fine. I'm not saying that they should clear not just wondering but I'm just trying to keep seeing. I I think it has I... I'm I'm not really clear what it's about, but that... It's almost This guy that doesn't take care of his business is this, like, defiant child. You know, I don't wanna do it. I wanna do what I wanna do, you know, this kind of thing. And and And the only one I harm when I do that is me, and and and when I don't take care of business, then I feel guilty, and I used the energy for the guilt.

And then eventually, i to take care anyway. So I've used all this energy on the gil and then I still have to do it. And instead of feeling badly about I'm using the energy to do it, and then feeling really good about. And I and I get to speak to guilt been picture sure. I haven't been formally practicing exchanging places with other people, but I've been operating with a lot of loving kindness and what is good for whoever I am dealing with is the more important thing. Yes. It is. That's for. Yes.

One man I'm working. Yeah. I had a little bit of success but one your line in my relationship communicate communicating about Mean, it could be anything. It be small. Because... But you one get sort of flash point where where... Like I same result. I am so right and this a person is so. I don't say that I'm saying that out loud. This just like... She's like, I know I'm right. And I know they're wrong gonna walk away or, you know, but what I'm trying to do and is really interesting. It's just stop...

That's so much fun I'm doing right now. But just like, try to move myself to say, Okay. Now how in the world can the other person be seeing the way their voice yet Very good. And if I can do it if I can let them It was intensity, I can start to see, oh, wait. I remember we talked about That listen that's then. No. I I see where that I see where it's coming from. And then that's It's just sort of bizarre things. Something you. Mh. Oh i'm saying that vertical. I very. I mean, it's just so interesting.

Yeah. If I can just let them enough to try to put my myself over there. Could How how good that krishna? How can it i see it the way they're talking. Can come up some really interesting. Certainly yeah. I have when you just sort of say, alright. And and second i'm right is i said completely natural spontaneous response. But yeah, trying to see on the other points person's point of view, makes some sense if it ever to you to do yeah. Especially the other person is somebody value that you respecting and care about, you know but?

Well, recently, I I've had an opportunity to practice explain. How or someone else, even though it's going to be ill devastating to myself. I mean, that's part of the hard. I have a very very dear friend who will probably be moving to the East Coast. Mh. And the near son very grandchildren and so on. And so it's absolutely... I I I feel like walking in her office since I've been doing. I can feel it's really really good for And it's gonna really, really hard And so I've been... I've been imagine, you know, imagining her there and and seeing the happiness the that's going to bring her.

And so it I heard one time when hardest things to do is to be genuinely to to feel genuinely Genuine happiness for someone else. And even though it it will hurt oneself or create a great loss. And all the rest of it. Those kinds that's been an opportunity to prompt this out, But it's been a little hard. You know it's been a little hard, but it sounds like it's been good too. Yeah. Because you see you that The edge off of it. You have been terms of projection to the future you've been projecting how your friends are going to be happy instead of projecting how you're gonna be miserable.

Which which won't me at the at the very least, it will mean the only unhappy i have to deal with this when she's gone in he administer rather than doubling it up like being unhappy now before she's gone by anticipating it then. But I think you might even know that that the sense loss and missing hers isn't going to be nearly what it might have been or what you... But some part of these fears that it's going to be Yes. And it's allowed me to really tell yet different way about this whole aspect of in imp.

And the whole issue that's prompted that we lives about change. Yes. Yeah. I can't hold wrong for her. I can't bolt go relationship investors Instant north because it will change. Mh. So it it's been up fire for lots feelings and talk some learning. Yes. Because even if she didn't go away, she would change. Thank you. Yeah. To be able to embrace the process as being the natural way things are and the way they should be and that they must be without resisting yet. And then you allow yourself to change and flow as well?

Fifth. Fun the things that got it brains to mind. I mean, the bad story based mind is that It seems that it's a when you're little that you have just But as you grow older and you learn how they want and several different shaman. And if she don't bring to end one of them, but learn to be with them somehow, clarity of charity comes through. And if there are these feelings bringing this vision method, then there's even greater authority because you're not long to either one or three of them and you just sitting a bit and you're letting them be with you without five minutes.

And then there's a clarity that eventually comes through that surprising. You know, because you don't expect clarity from me. From... You know, you wouldn't get it from conflict. Right. So if you were resisting any of those or are using them as one against the other, I think it would be difficult. But if you allow them all to be there, then you're able to deal with dealership. Jesus get two etcetera. Yeah. And two. Especially to surrender to the idea that he... There's there's no way that you can be in control and that that's all what this struggle about is that you know, I want this.

I want things to be that way and and I need to be control. You make it. You're making a decision and, you know, you you can you can acquire a certain amount of information and you can weigh close and cons and things like that. But ultimately when you make your decision you're stepping into end done. And you've got to surrender to that. You gotta say, okay. But I've done all that I can do. So from this point, know, please. Let no point struggling and it further. And we worry about... We worry about to feature something much.

If you think how much as your life to spent? In any anyway. What if this goes wrong? What Oh problem. Yeah. And yeah know. This is present moment if I begin to worry about what might happen later tonight, I'm losing something right now. And And losing really the elegant that I ever have and i don't know most of the things we've already got never happen anyway. Most of the time, things just do not go the way they may think that they're going to go no matter. But. So yeah. So and a version are really there sense their side of the coin.

I mean, the say... They're you're gonna ask aspects the same thing. That's. It it seems good. Well, yeah. Yes. And that's why the... There's the one word in Poly on we usually translate its craving and in encompasses both both the desire the wanting label dragging onto and in fur pushing away struggling against the trying to make it not happen. So Because active root, they are exactly the same thing they are they making keep real in your mind of this of this sort of substantial self it and then having this this craving for things to be in a particular way.

According to the perceived needs of this itself that be fake So the more clearly that you can can't see that over and over again in different situations or you realize that that your own freedom your own liberation is just just that far away, all you have to do is to recognize the truth thing you've always know and start fighting against it. And just... Just be rather than always struggling to become. To to be a part of the flow rather than than trying to resist it. Know Yes. In that experience, I've been having it's called now.

It's all about them. That there no Pastor or future that? I didn't realize it until you had gonna bang in the person. Yeah You can be completely the present while you're engaged in something like, which it has to do with you know, planning to purchase some making arrangements and things like that. But you can be completely in the present, but that rather than you know, you're you're in the future when you start to have the worries and fears, you're no longer in the present. You're no longer in in the process you're and this other imaginary domain know of procedure that they never be.

So so yes. The present was the cost of the evolving president is older. Changing your yourself from it's very it's a very powerful way of getting in touch with what's happening inside of your yourself. But at the same time, Yeah. It's a very powerful way being able to move in the direction. Of having gone beyond the limitations of stuff and to to go from line to to leave. To recognize that We we are all we are all one. So tri doesn't really say it because we hear many, but deep down, We all one.

Yeah. Yeah that's. So location study in the beginning. I just still have a lot of thoughts about and what it really redeem that and different ideas come up at different times. But one of the things that Has been really servicing for recently reset just we reminded with me that. His my says they all set beings we everywhere come to know make sure world free from suffering. And It seems like what that is say to at least in part is that there is this conscious ground in the users universe. This this is consciousness and when we ourselves and these starts.

As as we become more conscious. And as we become... Well, become more work more aware, than in live and the whole thing. So we're all set you. Mh. So that that seems like a huge beautiful thing. That by our and so on that we are... We are adding to... This is... Know, which is stove not good? Because this south trying to not big enough, but it seems like it it by our singular efforts we are adding to this huge conscious ground that we're. Does with this? It certainly does. That is exactly what doing.

And it's the realization of that. And getting it... It when we... When we set aside, the idea of of being a a soul can We are a phenomenal self and this process in this lifetime. But... And and so we experience the universe from our one special unique point of view, which is what we have to offer. But when we get away from the idea at somehow the soul is going to discard this body and pick up another when I go on. And and once again, still be separate etcetera said that we realized that we have come from everything and what we do goes back to everything.

And so then it's just... As you said, that's exactly what we're That's the reality that stares is in the face, when we stop being trapped hindi the idea that that I am these aggregates. These these aggregates are gives it these aggregates. The this is the self. This is the real self as these aggregates. And there is no other self behind beside. And it is a sense of second and isolation that unfortunately, we project onto these aggregates that creates all of our difficulties. So we let go yeah. Assumed the sec we're still the same aggregates.

That hasn't changed. We're still the same aggregates, but and we're still accepted now we're where these it in a dynamic. Integrated union with everything, and we don't have any false expectations to hold us back. Allows to be to fully to fully embrace what it needs to be what we are right now. Taking each sweet breath that we take, including one that's gonna be over all last. No need to struggle anymore. Now, ultimately, all of our struggles are They all come down to that final thing of the struggle to survive.

So what is it that's going to survive? It's this notion that we carry around over of the separate itself, but we're separate good. Even these aggregates are not separate. Even this mind that feel like we are are is not separate. It is resonating with all of the other minds that are around in contact with us it information coming again and all the kinds of subtle ways and it's molding and changing. What we are and that everything we do is you know is affecting everyone else. And so we're not one we're not separate at at any point.

So to get to that place of being and stop pointing to illusions and stop carrying on this struggle, to survive. You have the buddha us sat on his as a part of it when he recount his enlightened my experience it. He said, that I have senior you house builder had no more shall you build this house because they but group that being has spent thrown down. And sometimes that's mistakenly interpreted in terms of the idea cyclic eternal and rein of meaning that this is last incarnation, but it's his last rebirth and the sense.

No more was his mind going to create the sense of being a set self, which it had been doing every morning when he had opened his eyes and for that matter. Every instant when he renewed his his sense of himself, but that's the if that's the being heard that the roof pain that had been thrown down and more at the house of self and separate that's be constructed around it, and that's that's what we want to do. Ben And you know, and it's not there's nothing lost. Nothing lost at all. None of the things that we truly value are taken away from us and that process.

Some people say, well, how can you take care of yourself. How can you survive in the world? Well, it's not like getting over these this illusion of as suddenly made stupid. And to to respect the bodies and the minds of others and in the same way that you respect yourself. Does not mean that you cease to respect and acknowledge the needs of this body of this fine. So so you don't lose anything except your suffering. You don't lose everything anything except. The illusions that stand the way of of Copied.

That's I a very question that is that when it is true that separate and desires are innate nature become wizard world. Is there not an arrogance that we see people change that I can see what you talk about the to be you have to be part of the line to be to be to create the account all the. Yeah. But is it in the end that we really can change your nature long as long as we are on earth? Well, it there there is the question is can. And that's what we mean. Oh sorry. Right. You you said you said considering that we born we come into the world with in this previous predisposition to desire an aversion to craving.

I think used the word Error it isn't at Arrogant to think that we can change that. And I don't know why you... What you have mind me use the word arrogant again, but that later on you seem to be saying. Is it possible? When it's the innate the idea yeah. Well, that... Okay. This is a really important question. This is Great theory. Is it possible. Great theory, mister buddha. But can anybody really do this? Or even much more important for me. Whether anybody can do I and or or or m i chasing after something that I can never attained is it?

Is it just some wish thinking? The reason that we go to the buddha for refuge is that. It does appear to us that it can be done because the buddha did. And that's the past. Last twenty five hundred years ago. So Now it's... Of course. One of the sources of doubt as well did booted really do it or. You know. Was this just some sort of poc per on people or is he something that a lot of people since then have attributed to here really wasn't what happened at all. And this is where the doubting mine will ask those questions.

And those are questions that would be foolish harvest to to pretend, they're not there because they are there. And so we we to look at them. But even more that, we we also go for refuge to the the because... And by the San, one of the meanings that corporations and some is all of those beings who have achieved that liberation and desire inversion by following the buddha. Question have the same question there didn't they really, but the more on are the more you know, more more reassuring it is so it may be possible.

Then we go through refuge to our own feature, which is, you know, that... When we come to the point of believe that this is something that we can achieve for ourselves. But yes, is it possible and now me out is possible. If you can have some small taste of that experience, Then and and if it weren't just a single small taste. But if you could have if you could find yourself having small tastes in this experience under different circumstances that would be reassuring to. Right? As at the at the very least, you know, string off of these taste together and you've got...

You got a whole deal. So good. So, yes. I I... I think it would not be very convincing if we were not able to have some experience of this ourselves. And I think that's what the buddha was teaching when he was when he gave that first teaching on the four Noble truths. He said, Understand. Sorry. And then under and then understand, the cause of suffering, that's just the theory part. And then he said abandon the cause of suffering. And this is where you should get to taste. On those occasions when you are able to recognize that is suffering your experience is coming from this craving and you are able to let go of that craving and of course You know, they you're not.

It's not gonna work every time, but it only taps to work a certain number of times for you to get those taste and say, u. This is what it this is what it could be on. Mh. So... Yeah... Now That's. I but the third truth is is to is to bring about the cessation of creating entirely. And so the question then becomes is a complete and final cessation or craving possible. You can't really know that until you've had some kind of experience which can confirm that Validate for you. And that's why the first stage of like managed characterized by over coming down.

Up until that point, it is to be expected that you will have. This this out. If not doubt about the buddhist and enlightenment if not doubt about the enlightenment of all of those who have followed in the past of the since then. There will still be that doubt that well, is it possible for me can I do it? And and so it is to be expected that you know, until that point, there will be something sent out, but there should that should be balance. But faith and the faith that comes from practice and from the combination of understanding this stigma.

Understanding it intellectually, understanding it theoretically, yes, but also applying it in many different ways and saying that it indeed carries a level of truth with it. Know And and you can you can come to understand quite clearly, I think in your experience fairly rapidly if you go about it. That indeed, all of your suffering is coming from this dissatisfaction this pre this desire and version. This this inability to be in a place of acceptance insight and. It takes a bit more duty, but you can take that to the next level and see that indeed all of this creating is rooted in the delusion that I am separate sound.

Now by the time you get to that point, you're very close to the powerful insights that are going to really instill a lot of confidence. Really still a lot of faith in you that indeed, not only is this possible. Is this real, But did you can do it too? Now insights are about the three characteristics. Everybody know the three characteristics? Damn that's alright. But he will. And then will. I you need to. Hey guys. No. They they are in imp? Oh, selfless? And suffering. Okay. That's the really short compact version.

Clear. And You've already learned a lot about the nature of suffering and the cause of suffering. And as your mindfulness develops, you start to learn a lot about imp and and selfless test. But though these three characteristics are things that you can do progressively greater insight and understanding in permanent. Well, to start off with, I know nobody has any problem with the idea that nothing laughs. Right? Great. Alright. I'll leave it now. Me laid that out. The Buddha said very specifically.

That he said sa, Sank cara nietzsche. Which means i it's all. And Sank kinda very difficult word, but formations constructed all things that are constructed all things that are are collaborations of the mind project projected so forth are am permanent. And what we do discover when look at this is that at at some point we realized that This doesn't just mean that even Mountains swear away. It does meet that. It doesn't mean that even sars burn out although over it does mean that. Because the and that idea there's still embedded the idea that there are things, which eat endure and someday endure longer and sunday may not is long.

But as has formations, they are not things in themselves. Their projections of our mind. And indeed, it is the very thing. The nature of thing that's, which is a projection of our mind. Ties there are no they're they're are legally, we live in a world cup process in the change. Fluctuation. Everything is processed. You a hard rock that looks like it's is is a separate thing and it's enduring for a long time. It only looks that way. To mind looking at it at a particular scale looking at a particular timescale scale and looking at a particular scale of identification.

Because it is indeed nothing but cross sells. And and I could go into that. Do I need to go into that or you kind of all realize, that every object like that. Is nothing but process. And it's also, you know, the seemingly solid rock is if interconnected with everything else. It's not a even a separate process. It only looks like a separate process from the particular point of view that we're looking at it. There's another point of view by which it's doesn't. Looks separated at all. It is seem to be a part of the larger process than it is.

Go to the right time scale or go the right level we'll patient, you know, i can go up, go down no longer go shorter no matter where which direction you go. It's only from. Our narrow perspective that our minds are rejecting this sort of stable thing that's on it. The truth in there the truth of on child perm is that everything is processed. And embedded within that is the truth that that t Sank cara are projection of the line that that these are not separate distinct isolated processes. They are all part of a very large process.

And and indistinguishable or heard. And to the degree that this is true of everything else, this is also true of of ourselves and when we recognize ourselves as processes as as as a process made of other processes, that is interconnected with other processes and stop thinking of ourself. As separate as that insight begins to grow. And and it caps clear, then the third the third insight, the third characteristic derive from these two. When an self cling to ill things There can be only one possible result.

And that is a few. Now do. Can't come to an air. But the nature of things has been prospects and the absence of any sort of cell lin on. And what the buddha said, he didn't say you have no cell. Is exact words is is sub that said we're all again, Dha, and donna means everything, all phenomena. You know, those beyond the thing, and it goes beyond Sun car. But every everything conceivable in any way is on not top. It is without soul that is about cell. It is without these characteristics are being separately existing, substantially separately self consistent.

So and that's So that applies that applies that applies to each of us subjective as much as it applies, to everything else in the world. And then we see that when our mind minds are wonderful thing they of these, you know, everything about these aggregates that we are is is quite warm. And unique and special and and everything else. But these minds of are are pre predisposed by the the crave that we came into the the these lines came into existence with a tendency to behave in the way of of generating craving.

And so because of that, these mines generate their own suffering. So we can separate the craving and the suffering from the non self and the imp of everything. So back to the question? Yeah. That's great. So is there any way by made mind stop? And there is no way other to van, fully realizing the way things really are. In other words, the answer is wisdom. And this just is this is actually what dub Buddha said. He said, the problem is delusion. He used the word that often has translated to his eight ignorance.

And there's nothing wrong with translating as ignorance except that it's easy to think that ignorance is a matter of not knowing it. Like do you know the capital of lithuania? Well if don't. That's one kind of ignorance. Right. But he's talking about the have kind of ignorance where you think the capital Lithuania is Paris and he willing to state your life. I be so he's sorry at wisdom. Winston is learning better. It's know embedded. Mh. So If you can... In terms of answering this question, if you can satisfy yourself that indeed...

Okay. That... If I were free from the Delusion of dating a secret itself then it would be possible for me to undo this pre predisposition to craving. And that's what the... That's... That's the way this path works is that first, you reach the conviction that this phenomenal cell. You no longer believe in this phenomenal self as being substantially real and secret the way that we experience. It's it. And this then allows you this is this is the first stage of enlightenment. This allows you them to do the work of breeding craving.

And and then this is the next two stages of, enlightenment my are involved with uproot cra. The once return there in the non return. And then once the craving is upgraded upgraded, then you're still left with this inherent sense of being separate even though you no longer believe that and even though way you upgraded it to the creating. And now the next thing is to attend complete liberation through transcending that. And What is the evidence for? Well, I'm afraid that at some point is you, you know, until you'd had a certain amount of experience of your own, you have to look outside yourself.

And you have to look at look towards others. And, of course, you'd have to be careful because you can deceive yourself about others and others just going to see here. So that there is that that definitely problem there. Mh. Is is such a thing as stream metrics and there were and is there such thing aren't not on the world. And this is what you have to ask yourself. And how... How would you know? So you're following two tracks. The one onedrive is every success you have in deepening your own understanding.

Having those experiences as temporary as a may of setting aside and and finding that in deep, suffering disappears. Having those experiences of letting go of the attachments of the self and seeing that when the attachment to the self is gone, the craving no longer has any support. And therefore the craziness goes. When you have those experiences yourself, then this will This will help to assure you to to believe that this is possible. But and until it becomes sort of permanent situation that doesn't slip away from you and and the stress of the moment.

You need to look beyond yourself. And you need to see if there those that manifest the most important thing is that they manifest the characteristics that you're looking for in yourself. And they manifest the characteristics that correspond to what you've discovered in your own inner search search your inner research on yourself. So what you're looking for in in terms of external collaboration. A stream is somebody who although it still feels like a separate. Has it has a stealing of being separate.

Knows at the phenomenon itself. This mind spotty, these emotions. His memories is anything else. He knows that that is just transient process. It's imp. It's it's it flex its process. And if there is no sup that. As a result of that, the street experience is much less suffering. Because still experience suck, but, you know, if you know this and you find yourself suffering, can you find yourself saying? Why why am I doing this and myself?? I know better. And so you pull yourself back. You don't have to go to depths of the despair that you used to because you have no way out.

You know, once she started hitting down the hill. There was no... There's really no way to stop the momentum. But now it is, it's the list. The wisdom that you have is what will turn a string and out. A stream is not afraid of death, and this is what the buddha said and the suit. The stream is not a afraid. Yeah. Because the stream knows that there is no self to die. Only, the five aggregates will dissolve. And the string knows this etcetera. And may still experience craving for existence, but it is not a afraid of debt.

Death has lost its feared. And actually, this is something that you see and sometimes that people who are facing them, is they will achieve a great introduce. Yeah. I have a friend. He's dying of pulling fibrosis and he has six months to that. And talk me for a long time last time to evening me. But he's kinda good place. He's not a afraid of time. And I... So, you know, one of the things I said is well Jim what is it you really wanna do in this next six months? Or so, you know, and he said, well, I thought about that and just really, I I don't longer have any interest in doing.

All I'm interested in is being. Good. And that is... That's basically where the stream comes to as well. Because it's no longer this attachment to the personal cell. So there's no longer this fear of loss of this thing that is now seen as as an illusion, not the same attachment. So it's not not a inferior The street med is a person who out of all bad habits who accumulated in their lifetime. We're still capable of doing things that are un kind making statements that are hurt of other people. Behaving in ways that are somewhat unfair and dis to others.

But a strain is i'm who. No longer is rooted in that sense of being a personal self And so their mind doesn't rationalize these things in the same way before. And the strain entrance notices that they are conducting themselves in an un virtuous way in a way that it caused harm or to disturbance to others. Well, you know, it's not that that comes to their mind that oh, This is against the rules. I don't do this any anymore. But it's rather. What the date with mindfulness grasp what's taking place, the effect of what their roots or actions are happening, when mindfulness scratch out and when the illumination of awareness syrup, they naturally spontaneously abandoned it.

The same way that you would abandon you picked up something that it was was sharp or hot or something like that. It's like you get rid. Mh. And so the abandoned that And then and then what they will do is attempt to make an sense. So if you if you find people in the world that have those qualities, If you can imagine people in the world that have those qualities, then take that as part of your of the basis for your faith confidence K. Once retired at a non return... What's return is someone who has largely, but not completely desire in a version in themselves.

So that they are not ruled by them to the same extent that other people are and to the extent that they were in the past. And one thing about this is that you don't realize at least until you started practicing mindfulness and would be deeply into it. You don't realize to the extent that you are controlled by desire and inversion. But when you start looking into yourself, you will see that. And when you be able to see that in yourself you'll be in to see it and others? And both yourself and others.

And a lot of understanding impact. So once return is somebody who has largely rooted that out. So those those comp, those compulsions are not there. To the same degree that they were before. And this is something that manifests in a person's behavior at see that. You can experience in yourself what it's like to be temporarily free of desire and version. And this can reassure you that such thing is is possible. And these are very real things that you experience. On this path. There will come. And it let come dramatically or it may come more gradually, where you realize that that attachment of cell is gone.

And once it's gone, you realize that it's not and it's done for good. It's gone not out here. It's gone there too, but it's gone down here that got level feeling. I am this. And I'm I'm attached to this idea of what I am. And and I reacted, you know, if you if you... If you do something to my things or if you say something about me or if you, you know, I I'm insulted, I'm injured or a you praise me. I'm elevated and and know, that down here where that comes from, it stops coming from there. And you'll looks very upset.

And you'll get used to it. I so after we're after a while, it's like, you she just... You you can kinda remember what it's like. But it's no longer part, but if you understand. And the same thing. You'll talk to a place where... Wow, desire. It's just not like days be anymore. It's like they come... The desire comes up, and you kinda look at it and And in the process of looking at it, it kind of weakens and t up and goes and falls off into a corner. Mh. So you're not struggling. The sky has not struggling.

No. There's odd work to be done. But it's not struggling. Yeah. It's not so. The most important saying is being in the flow. You crack us sit right now, b here now. D of the present. Don't claim to the idea of I am the substantial thing that's going to exist tomorrow therefore I have to take care of myself for tomorrow. Right? And don't clean to try to hold grasp onto of the world and make it say the way you want it to be ready you need it. It you don't you know That's for all of our problems Scott.

You end up being in slow. Like is wonderful. It is a miracle that you exist, rather than telling says. It's a miracle that you are conscious. And the miracle of of the fact that you are and that life diaz, that's that's such nice. And will you embrace that such, and when you become part of this whole flow, Then. That's what needs to be liberated. So yes, we can. I don't think I think we're unique as human beings. Where unique this human because the reason that we have desire in a version. Is because in evolutionary history, is desired in a version that has a assured survival of the aggregates and the continuation of the species.

But as human beings, we had reached a point in our biological and spiritual evolution. Biological evolution still eclipse us with the same comp, but in our intellectual spiritual, whatever version and the other aspect of our evolution. We're at the point that we can go beyond it. Through wisdom or understanding. We can sever the root of these compulsions rewarded was the has severed, then then, they we can we can dig out the data off the rest of it. And then we can be in the safe that yes. For of cra where you can experience the permanent cessation of taking, which is what Nirvana is covered for.

So... Yeah, it's absolutely possible. It's not here again. Is it Yes. Please please. Two questions or one is that it's very interesting that step someone who's able to recognize that they don't have a cell. Yeah. Because it would seem to believe that is a hard one. That to be able to give up craving... You could there... It seems to me that it may be easier because you know that, oh, I want this, and I want this, but you can say to yourself. No. It's not real. You don't need to ask for and, you know, and so you could change your mind.

But to be able to in your gut, understand that there isn't a permanent self seems to meet be harder. So I may interested in how what seems to me to be such a hot. Should be the last thing at part two. Well, It it is in a sense heart, but it's essential. The thing is that you can you can temporarily free yourself from crazy. Right. But as long as the root is there, which is a. You know, logically... And and not even just logically i logically actually analytical, yes, but also subjective experiential look inside yourself.

And you'll see that Crave is the inevitable result of separate nuts. If if there is this feeling of being a separate cells. Then the root remains for some form of breathing to arise. And really it's we're not totally free of the most subtle forms of craving and we're three not just as the belief in the self. But that inherent sense of self that they are not gets rid of. And that's the reason... Well, yes. It's easier. And and it's even it's always easy it's a good thing. Practicing some on meditation.

The hindrances of world we desire in a version are overcome. But only tend temporarily. They, you know, for as long as you practice sabotage regularly. You can experience being free of desire and aversion. But the root is still there. And this is what this this is the problem with overcoming... Yeah. The this are the first two of the five hindrances. And the five are overcome. When you attain sergeant. The five are where desire, ill will, procrastination and laziness. Agitation do to word in remorse.

And down. Okay. When you achieve, all five hindrances are suppressed or they're they're overcome. But because the root of ignorance still remains or attachments to self. They will come back and they can't come back. So somebody practices summit can look like a really great facts rn enlightened being. And they... And and and and it's not a bad. I mean, you know, if you got settle for session batch, that's pretty good. Long as long as you're capable to sustain the san practice, you can sustain the temporary state that corresponds quite closely to damian and enlightened and being, you're free from that.

You're free from anxiety do to worry anymore. You're free from desire. You're free from illusion. You know, you're not susceptible to laziness a procrastination. You know But something happens and you can't sustain the sun the time, you get sick. You get to develop alzheimer's somebody declares war in your neighborhood and you can't sit and meditate you know, any of the things that you can imagine. And then growing back up again from the roots. They're shut off. Level, but all the roots were there and they they're right back.

So that's why for enlightenment, for the... For it to be the first agent of Enlightenment, you do have to do something about that route. And even there it's a two stage process. First is the attachment to the belief and personal cell. And then ultimately is that that sense that feeling but... And that's kind of like, you know, if you hit your knee in your it's a of reflex line. That feeling isn't a by thing. And so that's that's the hardest thing of all where we overcome. But have you say a good part?

Because It's not as hard as it seems. Even the idea of not itself, like I I what I I liked about this book is I think that it gives a lot of really easy to assembly examples of real life things that are demonstrations of the fact that the self is illusion. You know would you agree with that? Larry? Sure. Yeah. Let's That that... That's what I like about it, you know? Is that he talks about people and the lost their memory he thinks about people that have had the corpus center or their brain and things like that.

And how how it affects him and and he, you know, he realize it. Oh, yeah. This self that we imagine we are, is just this temporary process of these things that, you know, it's not any kind of a something kind thing we'd imagine this so so Yes. When when I don't have a feeling of cells, I feel This really sounds weird. I feel like referring to myself in the third person. Mh. I would never like, do that out loud. I think it's a obnoxious I'd heard some sports people do that, and it's like the height of Ego.

But the feeling is that I'm observing him to build. I'm observing him, but I am not ill, and i'm and I'm clear On not bill. Yeah. Well, to when you start recognizing, what your true nature is, you know, then it's helpful sometimes they use a different language. Instead of of saying i this mad me at my end that. And a lot of times, you can say the mind, mind. So these aggregates. Of the spotty. I on that. This entity. And it's it's helpful. And it's actually a good idea because I mean, not you should do it in front of other people.

Absolutely shit. Let me everybody. What me what did you say not doing? What I have seen is is is people will say, say, oh, well, if I wanna appear to everybody else to be, you know, really highly walled and everything, I'll always refer to myself in these stu. So they'll they'll think I no longer have an ego though. You know, that kind stuff is nonsense yet. Like the site you know some of, like, they're one bill. That's well they... That's how they refer to themselves they signed their emails, once bill.

What steps? And it just makes should me laugh. I'm like, no, brother tripping Got on the hand. Their use. There is sage fraud definitely california when when sometimes you realize that that there is no self in here, and then other times you find yourself caught up in the south again. You know, to speak in those terms to yourself, at least thinking in those terms to yourself can't be very helpful. It can it can keep reminding you and reinforcing the idea. But after a while, you do the same thing that the Buddha does.

It's like I is it perfectly good word. But... At some point you cease to think of it in terms of cell. I needs these aggregates. My means point. Mh. You know, i mean this body mind chocolate complex. I this entity. You know but it's it mean that's what that's what the buddha is set. I mean, so all these and you know, sit earlier or forty five years, every question's is gonna be asked. So has them do why... You know, if there is no self and you're in here in our, And why do you keep referring to i me and mine?

And he said because it's he's just story he talk. It. That's yeah. It really is? But is there it also can be pre if you adopt this what's you crap. But... Yeah. That's good. Okay. I... I don't know. But I think this conference fast. It's five up. Can't. Well, i I hope this is and a health useful discussion completely. So and we'll try to carry on from this week after next. Keep keep delving into this in your own experience. And of course your meditation is such a wonderful opportunity this azure mind starts to get calm and still focused You can see what's going on.

You can see all little subtle desires and versions that arise in the space of sitting on the Cushion. Right? Can see all we attach not to cell i realize that. K. Start. Convince yourself, but not only is this real but that you can do it. Too. Can't. And one of the things that I do wanna to talk about that so I'm sure larry, will bring it up unless somebody else says. Mentioned mindfulness earlier, which is very much related to this question of what is consciousness. You talked earlier about being made some reference to to consciousness sustain the ground to wall existence and everything, which is a very true statement So I think that for some of our future discussions, this would be a good good direction for a figure.

I think we're at right. Stage to start exploring that.

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