The Mind Illuminated archive

TCMC 25 Feb 2010 part 2



Automated transcription

So I'd like to continue with the discussion we started last week. And so first of all, I'll ask Hopefully, you've all been thinking about digesting and what we talked about and perhaps if you have access to either the life of the buddha or the switcher, you you will ever grabbed the down the chocolate on us. So maybe there's some questions or comments. Your instruction was to satisfy yourself so we talked What did we talk about anyway? Just. We we talked about the bottom line was that will fall suffering.

And he is evolving called secretary his office. Right. That's very good. Yes. That. There's many different ways of looking at the suffering. Looking at life and the suffering that's there. And it's important to look at all those different ways. But the really important distinction is that which you talked know mobility science at all, and that which you can change. And so that's that's what we zeroed in on and pain is of it's you you avoid one pain only to experience and other. To be the kinds of preacher that we are and kind of grow.

Physical pain inevitable. But what is proposed to us as I say aria truce. Is that other kind of du that is that exists in the mind. That's not inevitable. So that's that's the one that we need to have a chat. Yes. So talking about it that physical pains inevitable, mental suffering is optional or to some training ourselves over time. The types of mental discovery that i available Is there some type of pain. Are types of mental pain. So I I hope that's something thing. Because actually I have a hard time.

Mh. Washing this myself a lot didn't we me about theme scene how react. It's been too. And as far thought, even if I'm not fully aware of what the content of the butt was steven. They'll send me back. Laughing in seems like of spots are so impressive. I know the reaction reaction viewers and it's last long but thoughts themselves can be real. Yes. Thanks. Okay. Well, let's... So the question is, are there... Are there really no sorts of metal pain that can't be overcome. I think that's... Okay. And so to answer that, let's just take one step backwards for.

We did get slightly in hand of ourselves. You know, I mean it was important to do to make clear that they're not only that there are two kinds of Du. But that the difference between those two kinds in Du is that you can do something about one. How. So let's just... Your question is are we really sure that that we can't can do something about every manifestation of that one kind of du code that's mental. But let's take one step back and say, Are we completely clear about distinction between physical du and mental du?

How is there any uncertainty residual uncertainty or doubt or anything about that? In in anybody's mind? Especially in Adam since she's some production. But I anybody else that's. I think I have some... I mean, it seems to me that they can over overlap. Mh. And this sounds that I don't know maybe the the physical but is like the manifestation. Mean physical pain and be a manifestation of of a a mental or a physical pain. And it's At least, I'm not sure but... Well, okay. You you're raising very question about over overlap between the two.

That. And and you mentioned could there be a physical pain that's caused is metal. Right. Yes. Very good question. Right. Have you have do you ever had an extreme emotion like grief that causes physical pain in your body? Yeah. Yeah. K. So no. The question is, and it's a very good one there. Is that he is that? Feeling that you experience is it mental and origin or is it physical in origin? It seems like it must be physical. Mh. I mean, I guess, when say org. I mean, I can see logically they should be separate somehow and yet.

When... The logic can be wrong. Yeah. Yeah. Often it's. Well, if you got angry with yourself, mental emotional. And then you heading to the wall as a result. Be really experienced physical plan. Right? But the actual unpleasant sensations and that case would be due to Basically, the stimulation of nerve endings or your head hit the wall. Right? And interpret to this pain according to where they go in your brain. So you may have deliberately banged your head against the wall. Because you were emotionally have upset, but the physical sensation that it induced was definitely physical in origin.

If you're feeling if you're feeling brief, it may cause changes in your own and autonomic of nervous system, that make cause your certain muscles to go into spas. Cause your diaphragm to tighten up and and produce discomfort confer. To the to to the extent those but it is related to nerves coming from the body. That's extent mean that it's physical. That makes it clear too. Okay. So... Yeah. And it's It's the kind of du that is rooted in in matter in the physical and of the body. And it takes us origins.

As the other kind of is mental. Now. And of course, I I think it's really easy to say that the physical plane if your body has nerve endings, you know, there's no way that you're going to go for very long, but very far. In this kind of a world without suffering pain. Now The only way you're guaranteed pain free from this is to die right now Right. Okay. So we can direct to this question. We can see that that there is no way that you can really avoid experiencing the kind of pain that's generated from tissue damage and stimulation of emergent names and to the question of Okay.

Yeah. We had presumed understanding and accepting. The truth that this other kind of Du is caused by breathing and we had actually understood and accepted that to be free from creating is to be free of that kind of Du when we said that dental pain is is optional. So that's what I know about we're getting ahead of our there. Although that. But if we're really clear, there's two kinds of pain have that the other times is suffering that we call mental or genuine and mental. Now let's go back to what you were talking on.

You say sometimes mental that you're not yet convinced. Our options. I can't see how they are. No the one, the one way I can see approaching it eventually set Most of these painful gods are very solid. Self. So self privacy. Can, like, all the possible examples and itself that then have new all those thoughts that are thinking of this un unavoidable clinical bus Right. But and this this is a this is a huge question. And it defines it varies very precisely. It's a huge question about a huge proposition It's a gigantic proposition to say that all of the du that is is a natural origin.

Is due to one single mental mechanism that I I mean just maybe we're going a little too far saying a single knuckle mechanism, but it's it's it is a mental mechanism. It is entirely under the single label of craving, and that's what is being proposed. And so that is a that's a huge proposition. It would really be that simple. Although it's only... Only when we look into k do we know how simple if not simple, Is. Spread that mean at least. This is this is a question. You're asking the right question.

Is it really possible? Is it really that simple? That all of this mental suffering is due to a single cause and that if we can eliminate that one clause that we will have produced such a complete and total change in the entire nature of our experience. That is a big update order. A big question. And that's what we need to look into. So and and that's that's where we wanna go. We you need to you need to examine it and ask that question satisfied yourself. So this really has to do down. This question has to do with more with the second our answers than the first ones.

It has to do with is it in indeed true that the cause of Du is is creating. Well, let's look... Let's start looking at that. But, first of all, let's let's take the easier The easy question that that we can get out of the way first is is craving the cause of physical pain. Yeah. Because, you know, the way, if you go and pick up looking the books bookstore her and read about four enabled double truth. That's gonna say first double truth whole life is suffering. Second will free. Craving is cause of all suffering.

Now we've already sort tried to go a little deeper into the first noble truth and say, well, really, it's talking about two different kinds of suffering. Okay. So let's answer the easy question. Let's look at what I think will be easier question first. Could craving be the cause of physical pain or to our distinction that here that physical pain is inevitable. Physical body this problem, And that's why you have that team. Yeah. So it's a signal. Is it that it's out balance. So in that respect, I think it could get great.

Well, let's that's let's look at that. This is see this is this is very important to look at the relationship between physical pain bank. And I want you to do that. Think about when you've had pain and how we've reacted to it. And what mental attitudes have made that pain easy to bear and what it made that thing difficult to bear. Okay. What's that? It should be it shouldn't be It should be and it shouldn't there's and the it shouldn't be then because like, okay. That's right. Creating to not have.

It's a craving to not have it makes the pain worse. Yeah. With without they're paying worse. And the more you resist the bank eventually. Then, the more difficult the pain is to bear. And the more that you can let go of your resistance. Then easier it is to deal with the pain. Is that not a universal experience forever everyone? Yeah. And doesn't that look to work with mental pain though. I I mean I can think of times. Mh. Where I was hurting a great deal emotionally mh. And fighting that versus surrendering and allowing myself to feel exactly how I felt correct which was less difficult to.

Right. Yes. The degree in which you to decree to which there is cra there. Not wanting or wanting it to be different. Mh. Because that degree, you're there's gonna be more suffering than there's. There's yeah. And that's That's really... That's really where we want to go with understanding. And Shenzhen Young, puts it in nice mathematical terms that are beautiful or regard a relationship with between physical pain and resistance. Which is suffering equals pain times resistance. You know, and and on quantifiable terms.

And The implication is that if there is zero resistance to physical plane, I mean, if instance writing about his mathematics then no matter how how big the quantity of physical pain you have if it's multiplied by the resistance to get suffering and suffering is zero, then there's a potential to experience zero suffering in relationship to physical things. And doesn't that doesn't mean that the physical pain doesn't occur physical pain occurs. And it's experienced as being a physical unpleasant, but that's not the same thing as suffering.

Right? You know, there's some people that let they hear another place sound, like fingernails on Blackboard. Or something that it's terribly painful to the and other people when they hear that noise. They can't be with you. Well yeah. It's not very pleasant. But it is bottom of. So that's an example of a different kind of a physical sensation. And it produces a reaction in the line, that I'm pretty sure everybody here at least every reasonable sort person that you're likely in encounter is going to agree that ken on the blackboard.

Is an unpleasant sound. But not necessarily painful. Some some let's say he said it's it's it's a terrible suffering miserable and and this all kinds of different degrees. And so It's a thing sort of thing. We take a physical phenomenon a physical phenomenon in and of itself, maybe to everybody's agreement satisfaction may be unpleasant. But it doesn't need to move to that dimension of suffering. And to what every degree it does is going to depend on the mines resistance. To it. How far can you can you take this?

I don't know. You'll have to find that out for you yourself. But. At least according to shenzhen proposition, if you can eliminate the eight all resistance, Then there is zero suffering. There's still just still pain in a sense of physical pain. It still described it as a unpleasant. But it doesn't produce the same reaction suffering. That's it If if someone has a physical pain and they feel sorry for themselves. Mh. In having that pain that adds to the suffering. There's kinds of ways that mental suffering can down physical stuff.

That's get back to your question. Is Is there any sense at all and saying that physical pain and you're never not talking about paying with the added dimension of your natural resistance. You're just talking about the raw physical pending it itself. Is there any logic at all in saying that physical pain, this inevitable phenomenon this far of life is due to crazy. What we do what where do you see? I I I think back to what I had eye surgery last year. And I had cryo surgery for retinal tears. And it was excruciating.

And part of what I did, I couldn't do anything. I mean, it. Part of what I did is I totally relaxed. Mh. And accepted to paint. Yeah. And somehow it made it more color Well, that's that's what what you're already you're talking about. But when if if I fill if I felt the craving, initially, I called the craving to not be sitting in that chair going through that process. And that was very difficult. It was when I surrendered. I gave up that craving to not be there and just accepted that I was where I was.

And and it was less difficult. So grieving in that sense. So I was creating to to... And you can remove a lot of the suffering and that's yeah. My point is that there's a huge amount of suffering that's due to the mine that is associated with physical pain. But by craving, could you eliminate physical pain for the world? Yeah. No. Actually if under Isn't not a for? You could you could eliminate the pain of hundred and and some individuals and maybe all individuals by making sure they're always getting enough food.

But could you limit a physical thing? You know, like buddha and memory birth sickness old agent death. You know, And would would be... If if there were no craving, would birth cease to be a cause of physical pain? With sickness cease to be a cause of physical pain, would old cease to be associated with physical pain. With the failure, your body systems, leading to death? Cease to be across a physical pain. It would. That's that's that's... Yes. Is it possible until there's the the realization of selfless, is that possible of rules that lose the setup to the point where there's nerve grasping to the body self or eye identity.

Therefore, the sensations of bloody effective you not connecting to a person because he needs your person to experience pain is possible to go so far. Didn't that like himself. There's no personal experience this what is a sensation and body. But it's not we couldn't be so playing because of inquiries us. So Well, okay. That's... Let's take it Could buddha who is totally free of any sense of self at all. With the experience physical pain. Well, what is a buddha capable of seeing? Is a buddha capable of tasting salt or sour asleep?

If buddha can do those things that buddha can't experience physical pain, with buddha suffer have be resolved with that. And that's that's that's the crux of the difference. So to the extent that Hub buddha is a mine of body and a mining body instruction. That that we're going to appear in the mind. Those representation is corresponding to the different senses. And that's going an include sense of of pain. Just the soft teeth sweet dark and white and red and green and so forth. But what is going to be totally different, it's gonna be completely her.

This... This is where her Shenzhen equation applies. If if the mind of the buddha has no sense of eye an identification, if there is no self who is is subjective the recipient of the of the objective, pain sensation, then there is all the pain and only this sensation and there's of suffering generating transcript. So Buddha can in response to the Ancestry nerve and the body, you know, move sweat off of the thorn. But that doesn't mean he has to suffer as a result. That's kind of what that. So to say to say that craving is due is the cause the physical pain of sickness, which, you know, the buddha experience say, the citrus held Hell much is back for that sometimes and then endo with massage back.

You know. And what we're understand that is he didn't experience suffering in the way that we would. But there was a body there was an awareness and so for reaction was taken that he would rest he with stop teaching and he address. And and man would offer to him the massage his bad. And he would accept that not not because he was suffering and looking for relief, but for the sake of the body, i say the needs of audience perhaps of the mind as well. And maintain the clarity know happens to your mind, when your body is experiencing a lot of physical pain.

Your money doesn't work this well. You know. If you wanna be a good teacher, you gotta take care of the teaching instruments. So know, you would take a progress. So. So the the the the only distinction and left let's not please get confused or misunderstand. Is it when I say pain is inevitable, that's what I'm talking about. This unpleasant physical sensation arising from any of the physical and sensitive, know, a big loud boom that hurts your ears. That is an unpleasant physical sensation. And if we can distinguish from now, the other part was metal, we can see that the mental the mental can make the physical be not just pain, but be suffering.

Okay. And so now for if we're clear on that, then we know what we're talking about here. When we say craving is the cause of suffering. We don't need to get into some I mean, some places you'll see it explained they well burst the suffering because birth is the result of trading because as you died at the end of your last life, you filled with craving for existence, and that's the cause. We're I'm talking about that kind of thing. The pain of birth is because what's more his physical body matters and same thing with pain of sickness.

You can't avoid it. And do like that say. There's a pain at old age. You can't. Then it got old and he experienced the pain of agent. And the the pain that's associated with death. But all aspects of suffering related to us. This is what we're we're focusing on now. And we're distinguishing between the physical and mental. And the question that we haven't answered yet is indeed is this huge claim through that it's so simple that craving is a cause of all of this mental suffering. But if it is, then, of course the third truth is also true.

That the elimination of creating is gonna mean the elimination of suffering. So what we have to examine now is to we really believe that all of our suffering, all forms of mental suffering are due to crazy. Aaron. And that's a challenge. I can't think of anything hurt. You can't pick any easy off. That's very good. So keep looking though. I think that's know. Yeah don't you don't want to... You don't wanna be cut out barking up their own tree just because you didn't look. Enough. And it's good that.

So... Well, you can you can trust the truth of this, but it it would be good to satisfy yourself. And I'm was just wondering Adam if you have any examples in mind that even say that you would like to look at more deeply. Yes. So I wasn't i looking for that. I. I think i idea of knowing the to me why. My reaction is this same around might I solve about these really kind of sudden almost, like, unsolicited it just thoughts that'll come there. I'm. Now. I just noticed this substantial version. It'll be like a train thought that I'm barely...

I'll wear up throughout the day and suddenly i'll see that my mind kind of recall. But I I can't think of on... I can't think of specific instances right now. One the one thing I kinda the with topic. I think i can when we abstract enough where that any suffering is caused by one of things to be under than how they are. And and that to me is really stable as the true. I mean, as as much as I've tried to apply that experience But I guess I guess I just can't I mentioned what this is can imagine what it's labeled is what?

Then would be like to have these experiences and just accept them could still happen. I guess it qualitative the change. So it's not sub. Or they just especially mental. That's doesn't spam it stops rising But I guess that's where Be caught. I just can't imagine what it would be like, the probably these days. Even with that since that... They don't want him to be able they are. It's they're there at all, it seems like they're close. You, certain mental mental states mh. Are. Fig guest certain mental states are well that's definitely church.

Yes. Comes. Yeah. So with the loss a channel. There there is a pain. And it's hard to imagine how how that pain is option. How that's suffering his options?? So that's a really good example. Yeah. So that's what we need to. Now Let's let's go ahead. Let's look at it, you know, just sort of logically. Fills off with it a little bit, and then we'll come back to the emotional and see if it helps. Creating what is creating This creating is desired last degree hatred version, so far. And and it's simplest for, I would say, well craving is wanting things to be different than the way they are.

Right? So in that regard, we say. Wow, okay. Yeah my child that he did. You know So... But That doesn't... That doesn't have the feel of a really victorious answer does a they have look at this as a we have to take look at this a little bit more and see if we can make sense of it, you know? I'm buffering because my child has died. And sure, I'm suffering because I didn't want my child today. But is is that is that a simple enough answer to to bias? And No. It's not. Doesn't mean that the basic proposition isn't true.

It just means that we haven't fully understood. Yet. Say, okay. What would it mean to not want things to be different than the way they are? Accepted. When after. And are we affected this something like every... Yes and every lost is every death and every loss effect is the same way as jeff of our child don't none employment. Okay. So maybe we can understand if we can understand the difference, just what made more sense. And certainly, when you look at this, doesn't have seem be that... Well, yes, some losses Some deaths are easier to accept, hate resist them as much.

So there's not as much is not a strong a wish for things to be different than the way they are. So, yes. Buddha when you've experienced mental pain if is son or it's Wi Well, that's that's really the question that we're at saying is that Yep. Here. Physical thing would there be... Yeah. This is the corporate needed. You know, I mean it's not suffering but it's. I think we've already agreed as the sutra corroborate that. If the buddha was sun by b, he would experience the physical pain the unpleasant of the des defect.

Right. But if... If does... Well, in the sutra that does... There are accounts to, you know, the buddhist chief thankful cried before he did, and there were other people that he's very close to but died. And There's not a lot of description of as being rock and greeting, things like that. No. Well there is something... Now the buddha have a a boy. He had a brain, and had in mind the same way that we did. And our mind reacts to things. Now and we we're talking about mental reactions and they're talking about sky national that's reaction.

Okay. With the line with the mind of the buddha, the mind of the buddha is bound to chance the loss of someone close to him. In some way. With the mind of the buddha had experience that by flooding itself with the emotion of suffering. Agree. Unpleasant Well, yes. That according to according to the scriptures the buddha experiences, both kinds of unpleasant on this mental said. Widely and unpleasant. So to the degree to wish there is unpleasant associated with the reaction I see no reason we should expect to Buddha to experience that.

But not has not as self and not as a being and not as a suffering. It was... As a matter fact, even we talk about the buddha experiencing something. Lost a little bit. The buddhist mined. You know, the buddhist body is affected by heat growth and mosquitoes. Mind is affected in a similar way and his my as. It is the same kind of entity that that we have. But it's no longer in mind that feels that experience sits itself as a separate cell. And it's no longer in mind that evaluates its experience from the point of view of things being self existent real, the way they appear to be, and the the psycho physical entity being anything special and separate from from the whole And so that's where the essential difference is going to lie.

Yes. You wanted to say something? My experience with the my experience loss Not as science arrangement. Not as ruth. A sense separation. Not as a sense of separation. Be said to separated should be different is he? He she is not doesn't have a sense. It's. If the buddha no longer sees things the way we do, then the buddha is not going to have that same interpretation that we do. And are all of our thinking is rooted very much and the idea that I am real. I am a self. And that all of you and everything around me is real and above it itself.

Yeah. Separation Yeah. It chase how completely different something we It's it's... Yeah. So you that's right. We're not at the point where we can imagine that. Well buddha who does see and stuff. Or anybody else or anything else. So when the Buddhist sun dies, I don't believe or who died until after rebooted it in. But, you know, if in that hypothetical situation, where... And it light being, has an... Has a sun or something else. Got. They are going to perceive it in a totally different way. Have a situation that's more extreme that I make.

And that is the possibility of your child being kidnapped and tortured. And you know? This is happening. Mh. How could you possibly not suffer? Get their dad... I mean, they're then. I mean and you and you come to accept that. But if you know that that being is going through some through suffering, and you cannot do anything about that. And these are things that happen and not happening now. So i'm gonna be rephrase. Okay. If the buddha is child while still a child was kidnapped and tortured. Is there degree of extinction of treatment That could spare the buddha stuff right.

Or freedom from delusion. That's that's you're asking a really Hard for question. You know Supposed put in around here. There's anything time to do is stuff? Let's put it to me Yes. That were question. Is like, okay. So you have physical pain, and then there's the sense of suffering that out and. And it seems like question is is there such thing as mental pain that then has mental suffering attitude that. So if that is the case like I think it's lasted about with the Buddha experience suffering in such a situation as much as would there be mental discomfort and as much as we have like, we're biologically pretty predisposed to experience physical teams for all sorts of evolutionary reasons.

Similarly, our brain is biologically plugged into everything else. So so with our brain and our mind not then experienced mental pain. Mh. In the situation of losing a child that we did pre predisposed have this kind of reaction or have someone close to us separate. Right? That's that's the question. Yeah. Yeah Yeah and that's... And you put it in in in terms that maybe give us a chance to look at the answer. It's our brains, minds, you know, use one word or the other if you prefer using both. It's our brains and minds that make us react the way that we do.

But determine. How we're gonna to respond in these different situations What is being proposed here is essentially deaf there's something going on in your mind that we call crazy. If we could stop that entire then there's something else that creating even causes, which is mental suffering, which is suffering, which is any kind of suffering other than other than the unpleasant associated with just being in a body in mind in the world. That the proposition is that all of that kind of suffering is due to one single cause creating and if the mechanism of the brain that is responsible for creating if you could remove that, them everything...

Everything that flows from that every form suffering. So he got that is the proposition. And when we put it in terms of the brain and the line, we're starting to get closer to maybe what really happens. The changes that the person undergo As a result of spiritual practice or that they cease to experience creating. Crazy is diminished. That ultimately there is no more crazy. So that's what's spending suggested is that that part of the brain of the mind that produces creating can be turned off completely.

Could the same phenomena occur with brain damage? I don't know. I. I don't know the answer to that. But I suppose the least at this point in time, we'd have to say that hypothetically, it could, or maybe there are other ways. I'll tell you people who have the kinds of experiences that you would like to have. Describe it as their brain being rewire. They're changed afterwards. Their brain doesn't work the same way they use it. They don't... They're their mind doesn't produce the same out of reactions.

And and that's what what we're doing. When we talked about... I completely enlighten buddha, and it was lost absolutely every last message are prayed. We we're hypo about how far that this can go. But if if what were if if what's being taught here is true, if what to do said this very first started. On the for noble truth is true. Then we'd have to accept that if craving is completely destroyed, all forms of memphis suffering are completely destroyed. And so Whatever whatever took place within the mind of The buddha when his child was getting kidnapped and tortured.

It would not be the kind of suffering that way that we're talking. Yes. Story Rosa master and his best friend guy at the funeral. The that master with Crime and somebody can to said. You're last where you claiming? You said if I didn't cry by french when what are i crying? Mh Comment on that mh. To me that mace, perfect sense, you know, because... And and we don't know the scent master was holding in light booting or not. But, you know, why why not if you've got you... If you don't need to have your heart broken to recognize the human nature every situation and to respond to.

And I don't know I don't know if it totally like being would've prior or not. It's like what he prior seem to me they would have probably for somebody else's benefit not afraid their own. The attribute that Buddha do have and you gotta keep this in mind This compassion or the suffering that So if something's happening to the Buddhist child, there is going to be a compassion. Compassion is the profound wish to do absolutely anything that is within possibility to help relieve the suffering tell of the suffering.

Wish to do is creating What's that wish to do is created it. Well, that's another discussion is wish to do recruiting. Well, I get you the same discussion. We got figured out left your heads that they were down. Because is is it buddha and it's completely without creating somebody who has no wish to do anything? Don't wish for things to be different. Yeah. So looks accept. Totally total acceptance. But what is. Does that mean the buddha wants things status this week? I don't. Yeah. I know. Yes...

Well, you know, I've I've read a number of stories about blues stories. And the the one that I think of, mean they all seem very much the same, but there is a a buddhist long who had given shelter to a young woman. And and so she had had a baby and she had accused him of raping her and she demanded that he take care of the. Mh baby he said is that so and he undertook the care of the child. And then several years later, she came back to him and said, no, this is the truth was. She had had this baby by somebody else.

She wanted him back. And and and he said is that so and he would returning them the child but in the meantime, he had had all the way through he had acted with it compassion that... you know, I don't know the answer to, like, there lot of questions here but, you know, when did the Buddha think and never no. But But these... It that seems indicative of of of a certain view of the world and the actions that that it would cause you to take and i how... I don't you know, I've need to go to to try and figure out what somebody thought?

No. We we don't need to go too far trying to figure out what what to buddha thought. So we need to know wherever we need to go to san. We need not lose track question we're trying to answer. But that's a really... That's a good story. That's a that's a very good illustration of what happens when somebody cease to react with desire versions, cease react was attachment was creating that their faults be accused or something. And they do whatever's is best to be done. you know, so there's a child needs to be taken care of, so he takes care of it is say mother is it wants to get a child whack and return. you know.

So that That's a. I I like that story in this context here. Mh. But let's... Yeah. And let's let's do not get lost here. Or the question we're trying answer is, is this plausible? Is this plausible this the the second rn truth that Everything that we call suffering is actually due to this one single cause. Crazy. That's that's what we wanna try to answer. And so that's why were asking the question, if the buddha was in if buddha, who's completely fee of created free of craving was in certain kinds of situations.

Would he be completely free suffering has we noted. That's the question we're asking, is it? That's why I we say if the Buddhist child was kidnapped in torture, and all these other fantastical things that. What we're talking about. That we're trying to understand, could crave really the the sole cause of every farming something. So is it that the way the bud the way buddha loves his child is somehow different from the way we beings no actually. Let me love them. In a sort of of being wanting way we the where is buddha has a different way of...

Not I I don't know. Yes. A a a selfless blocking. Right. But that's very good. I mean, yes. Let's look at this. How do we love our own children. You know We we regard them as an extension of our ourselves. And when something hurts them, it's like there's something hurting us. Okay. So that's really important thing to make note of. And we... Our children give us joy and satisfaction and if that's taken away from us, you know, it's like... It's like having anything else that gives us joints. Satisfaction taking number real like?

So there is and And our loss and our suffering and our grief, there is a selfish component that we would expect not to be their we have to do. And suppose to really... Okay. To to keep ourselves clear on track, we have to doubt we have to go a little bit further ahead. You know, the buddha said the the third guardian entry truth is cessation. Creating is a cessation of suffering. And how about how was the cessation upgrading brought down? But the buddha not in this sutra but elsewhere taught that creating arises out of ignorance, and the is the belief that we are ourself and the belief that we live in in a world of other projects and things with sounds like nature.

Mh. Okay? Mh. So Let's keep that in mind. Because when start trying to examine what creating cause and what just creating, not calls. We have to realize premium never occurs without attachment to to self end to a world of self exist documents. And we see really clear evidence say that let we just what we're talking about now is that when we identify, our child, you know, or for that matter or our house or our car or anything anyone else has a part of ourself. Than whatever happens to that, we suffer in a way that's related to the kind of suffering that we experienced from something happens too.

Else so already so. Until we realize it's not ourselves. And taylor, we realized it's not. Yeah. And well, of course, I don't not sure if this is what he need, But we... In the course of our life things will happen we're very attached to something. And we're suffering because we're losing it. And then something shifts and we let go that attachment. Down does. Right. Yeah. So on then on a one team, one i could clear the one. Yeah. We would one things to be different. Put wanted people to be cleared from suffering?

They wanted people to the or more specifically one tug. That's out. Then wanting is pawn as long as there's an understanding it if they're What's great? It seems like craving ea as said believing that it... The thing the Ukraine has so persistent major. That you're willing to do something negative to get it. So other than those... Those two are wood. You're not and not saying even good self resistant and then you're were free to. Yes. Want solve isn't craving. Well once you just did something, you it if it doesn't there's two characteristics?

That that's right to look at the world and say, it would be better if things were this way instead of of the way we are. That's not what we're really calling crazy because that's something that can be seen, understood appreciate it. But it doesn't rise out of a comp. And annual comp. And it doesn't. And the only reason it doesn't arise out the comp is because it's not associated with to say this delusion. As things being selfish because it's not real so forth. Then because, you know, it's not as so knowing that things aren't self existent real.

Means that all of a sudden nothing matters anymore. That's there's still... There there's there's still things that can be just buddha still wanted all sentient things to to achieve their own salvation. He said on his deathbed bad to hear to sprint their crack dis worked for your own salvation. So that's a... That's a wish. That's a scene relative reality the way it is and saying that it it a better being right and doing things that appropriate, but not arising how of he diluted beliefs that they are.

So appear to be or an inner comp the... And then the comp part is really an important part of this. We experienced desire and inversion as a comp. It's not like you know, we're deciding which part of the Georgia best to put the four in which it's best to put them there's no comp and that. We can use logic reason, you know, we know it really doesn't matter even if to come a drawer at all. It could be a gentleman the counter. We know no that really matters. Since it's in. It said since we're putting in their Drawer.

Then we go ahead to figure out well where best to put it. Right? So there's no propulsion in there. It's it it comes from reason. The actions of the Buddha are based in and wisdom and reason and compassion and, but they're not driven by delusion and they're not driven back propulsion. Want and sovereign. That deep. That is... The you ask absolutely be right. Yeah. Yeah. But then wasn't herself. What's that? What I I think what Buddha wanted was not for himself. Once he was in booted. But, you know, before that, he was like you you are?

And mh you're filled with desire. And if anybody tells you, go out there and be desire, you know? Sorry. You not forget like that. It is not gonna happen. But what we can do, what far better advice is is become aware of your desires, you know. And be like. And don't don't act on the ones that are are on hold. The desire to obtain your own liberation, that's the desire and it's based in delusion. You believe i am self and i want be liberated And actually, you're gonna have to get over there. So Because Mh.

Mh. But i that's behind your desire is what you're might to recognize the loser nature. So you do have to get beyond that. But in the meantime, that's what you have to work with. Far better the i should wish to achieve a enlightenment that that I should wish to rat myself at other less wholesale ways. Right? So so and until you're a buddha, don't think about being free from desire. Just think about initially narrowing it down, so the only desires that you have left are the they wish for you're enlightenment for the benefit of all beings.

That's called Bo chic. And when that's the only designer you have them. You know, that... You you get really close to the answer the path. But at the meantime, you going to have desires and and and Da buddha. I think I needed it he had... He he had desired when he when he left home and took up the ce practices and he mastered the gentleman then later on when he went through those years of practices of austerity, know some of you I know read about those, they stay said practice. Those are pretty extreme.

Pretty severe. You don't? Do that kind of thing if we do out and have a comp. But And even as he says at the very beginning of the sutra we're looking at, he says the the that that path of austerity and self punishment, but it's not a good way to go. But to follow any path, you have to have that desire, you have to have that motivation. So accepted that it. And So in that regard, I get your condemned to continue suffering as long as you have created for enlightenment until you've actually become light.

So except that too. But I don't know we've made any progress. I think we've got we... I think we've got the the issues clearly out of the table. Mh for you to think about. And you you got to... You've got your work on these and think about them, it says, you know, is this absolutely outrageous proposition likely it'd be true? And of course... And and and you'd have to see is is... Can you understand it in terms that when some people might look at this suit superficial and say, oh, it sounds like this is a path that leads to me to be kinda and emotional auto automaton.

Doesn't care about anything. And that's that's not true. But you're understanding you, you have to understand and then such that is not going to leave you vulnerable to that either. But That's what you have to penetrate into. With yes. What he actually said in this sutra I were running out of time, but I was telling you a little bit more. Those of you gonna haven't. Have copy of opportunity. Actually, everybody can get the sutra on the Internet. If you just google the Put but turning the dark wheel.

And Access to insight has Down arrows time therapy. This also a lot of value translation. But anyway, I'm gonna tell you a little bit more about this. He said first of all he at outlined very, very briefly. The fortress. Which I did last night, but just as briefly, the truth of suffering the cause of suffering a cessation of suffering and the path to the endo of intersect. Then went on to say that... Well, he has as i told her last name he said, until, I knew and understood these things. I could not refer myself as as and I'd like to be.

They they goes from each one. He says, that the truth of suffering must be understood. He was comprehend. You must penetrate it and understand it. So what we're talking about. Secondly, he says the truth the cause of suffering has to be in the same way, comprehend and understood. In addition, you have to abandon it because of suffering. Now this is not the same as the cessation. And the that's true. What this means is that you have to start looking at the craving in your life and seeing where you kind of damn doing creating.

Seeing where you can like, oh, that's the fact second thing that you have to do. So with the second truth, there's two things to do with Why does understand? The other is to start practicing the that of the cause center. Then he goes on to the third. Truth. The cessation of star right. And he says, this has to be understood. Just like the other two. Yeah to think about it. You. To reflect on that. You have to... you know... And there's a lot more to this. For example, you you can't the cessation of session the cessation of creating is not brought about by deciding to cease crazy.

As a matter of fact when he get into it a little more deeply. And remember he talked for hours a day and a night to these, they weren't deep to say there there's yeah. He actually on a day and that I. And these were these were men that he had been living list and doing other practices with for years. So they had a lot of common yeah. Already. So he's a lot of things that in the sutra. Later on we find out that creating is rooted in delusion and that's the diluted belief in cell they self reality of the world.

So the third truth dan the truth of cessation kind by creating and cessation of suffering. Has to be understood. And it also has to be What's the word that he you is... Anyway, you. And do you have to you have actually do it. You have to achieve it. Let's say has to be a tune. It has to be achieved. And then the full path which is the path leading to that that has to be understood and has to be developed. So you see there's this... There's things do you have to do. Let's me you it. We're in standing part right now.

Hopefully, you're all also in the abandoning the second grade. Page right now. Because that's an essential part of the practice. You can you have to go through that the deliberate process them trying to live according to to pre and to practice the perfection. In order to abandon their cravings. Is the only way it can be done. And to the extent that you do that, you've make your mind ready for the the other things that are involved with bringing out cessation. Great. So Let me find a su here here because if fun he was here's what be before I let you go to audience.

I use teach. I used to teach on a person. That is great. No. That's couldn't get her laurie. Excuse and so Now, while this is the source with being delivered, The spot and imma vision of Don rose in the d K down Down. Was one of the five that he was being to. So the imma vision of the Dha arose and van will conduct us all that is subject to rising is subject to cessation. And the buddha had turned do kinda down there and said, do you really know, How on you do you really know Yes. And he did. He was he was the first of the line.

Now that very phrase repeated many times in future point somebody has a realization, but all that is all that arises due causes and conditions has been faster way. You know. And just different what to state when i get it. Do you see the connection of that? It's the real disk because This is the expression of the realization of not self of Anti emptiness. So he went on to teach the screws for be because spur. About a week, and there was six of them. And himself in these five. And did we teach day night and three of them but there were once a day three we go into town give food the three spade and they take turns switching out they did.

At the end of it at the end of this period of time. There were fixed powerhouse there were. Sure. Yeah. That's I I sense. I think that's definitely... That's definitely where you go. I do you understand, but you know, if all of the things that we need to talk about are actually alluded to one way other and this very brief. And the the when he talking about the first the first truth, he answered it with saying, saying, in short, these five aggregates to which we clean are Du code. Now that's So the the five value gets are what makes that an individual a according to or thirty two.

What's defined in the sutra in the dha. So when this line is certain in, it means this body in mind that we think we are. That's right i was being referred to you there. And man of course, where each old that's the the whole of the path there. So you keep talking about this until everybody's got But what's the most the most important things about it. So you don't get lost and all thinking of it. Is we would all like to be free I'm sorry. And when we understand But call of suffering in the math leads to the end of suffering, their removal of that cause.

What we find is that not only is the end of suffering available too. Us but so is a huge amount Of listen all the wisdom we could have ever wanted comes as part of the package. Doesn't matter how you don't get the of suffering anywhere up those getting all we wisdom that goes really. And that counts as a result of that this as part and parcel listen is compassion. And as a part of that compassion maybe if she meaning a purpose then direction in their lives that he's always good for. So these truths are the be beginning of the path that evolves into the the compassion that the way the whole sign works. yeah.

Well keep course ham. Satisfy yourselves about the first and second level truth as much as you can. And come back with some challenges where we can talk about. Or some answers that we can share.

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