Stronghold 21 August 2011
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Great. Well nancy she's going to join us. She's meant to get a battery variation for such bets. What should we talk about? Okay. Sorry. I must enough have something pressing virgin. How do you reconcile it kind of classic stages of of purification such as stream once return or no no return or without the idea of rebirth. In particular, in particular idea of once returned look that processing okay. And is this... Yeah. Okay. And the follow ups guys is. Oh, this is the only shop hat. Okay. It's you wait till you plug in and then repeat the question.
Yes. Maybe k look. We will do this right. Let think get a drive. Can there let me on the air. Okay. So You ask? I don't do any reconcile You hard? Sorry? Does your debit record? Yes. History right. How do reconcile? The location of mine Maybe you should say let me say that again. So again, this my question's come out of just looking for the Avi dha and seeing the kind classic levels of enlightenment such or statuses of purification of minds to stream enter where certain hindrances are once return or non return.
How you reconcile those especially the ones return, well who's returning without without the. Well, it's. So there's on the there there's the use of this terminology And the question is, what does that terminology which seems to be referring to an individual returning. Because after all gives that if the practice that leads to the becoming of Buddha becoming a car line, is described as a gradual process. And then the terms are used that suggest this happening or series of why how could this not be referring to some sort of itself that transcend the material existence of the body.
Right. That it that is an excellent question. There is another way of understanding these terms. And I can explain that to you. But another part of this question really he is you you said something about this is the too. Yeah. The self is not reborn. This is the only shot we've got, which is which is very accurate from the point from the non peri point of view. Right from the point of view of a world lane. Who kinda only understand either I've got a self which is either gonna be just destroyed I yeah.
I I got cell. It's either gonna be just regular when I die? Else it's gonna continue on and if it's destroyed when not die. Then this is the only shot I've got. So somebody does always this work to become a non return. I mean they die. That's it. No. Do for do. Yep. Okay. Now putting this is is what? What is the relationship? Between what continues on in time following the dissolution and the five aggregate as compared to this stuff that we that we think we are. That's been these are all different ways we're looking that Okay.
Take the terminology question first. Reason is another. Very valid and far more useful way to enter interpret the term that using. Because I'm the only the only value or use that comes from the idea that i will be rein and how i shot at best. And it'll either take me no more than seven more of these terrible. Or one more Right. But the heck... I just, you know, I've got one more around, but it's in david down around, so it doesn't matter. It makes you feel good. That's the only use. Oh, your interpretation of that in terms of they're actually being something.
Settle that goes on. But there is far more practical is of terminating these as referring to as describing what happens in the gradual progress from world to do that. Okay. What happens? When you overcome the first three file, so attachment two. Ego do, Magic, Right Rich. And doubt about where they whether there is... Whether this any point in getting this at all? Maybe it's just another scheme the bankrupt up to make people feel better. You order overcome those three environments. You still have an enormous amount of accumulated habit patterns of behaving and thinking and reacting.
So if we say what's being returned to is some Sarah and somebody who's... Who has realized these the has overcome these first three violence. We described the as someone who will return to some. Some number at times, some modest number of times like seven. Before they become so late. Sam sarah is the state of my venture afflicted as a result of the belief and attachment to self and the belief him and attachment to the world the way it appears as a self existent reality. This is by strict definition.
That's what sounds sorry. It is existence. That afflicted by these police. So to say that person knows chief stream history injury. May her to I'm sorry seven times. He is to say, the they may need become immersed in the suffering that arises directly from the cra that has its roots. In the ignorant attachment to self existent reality and the world in himself. That's by literal definition with the statement said following me? That's what was saying. If we look at what happened to the person who that achieves this?
Yes, they do have a lifetime accumulation of mental habits that have not all been over time. What's happened is they realized in a profound way that they cannot lose that I am not this ego construct. They still feel like i they are a separate self. Because that's not lost until the period last state. But they know that they're not this he yourself. But what will happen to and after the initial period of clarity sense freedom, liberation release, that that comes from from the experience of strain entry.
After that, they go back into world and with these habit patterns or triggered. And they will find themselves suffering. And at some point, their suffering will do become tense enough that they will have another experience of a weight name in sense it. What i pray from my dear. I know better than. And they'll let go of it and might be. They also have the experiences that do all of those digital formations they behave in ways and even them do things that cause suffering to other the people. And they'll do that without really with realizing mindfulness will fail until some point, it will penetrate their variance.
And the same time will happen, they'll say, Why am I behaving my? Why i thinking? I know right. I i this this construct does not lead any sort of display until they will have them done way. That is what happens to stream metrics. And it's that not pretty good. It is it's not saying that they have returning to Some Sunflower again is that not a pretty good way of describing the common experience of stream those with this? What. Sounds good. Sounds good. Okay. Put seven times. Seven is... I don't know.
Right I've still haven't looked at so I know clearly what metaphors are versus all so forth. But it's one of those numbers that Basically, it means not thousands, but It'll probably happen a few times at least, right, Seven. It's kids yes. No. So not to take this quite literally, it's. Yeah. Not to take it literally and so. And and actually, there is a suit where somebody pressed to buddha on this point. He said, well, there's different kinds of strain ventures. We want speak. They won't need this to happen to them at all.
And those that it will happen the maximum number of times so they're in between. So it's... Yeah. Now there isn't there's another way of interpreting with seven times hand terms of the the meaning of buddha which is to awaken. And so the street entrant is someone who has awakened from a bad dream. At a stream android who returns to san to who splits back into a pattern of thinking and behaving and feeling like suffering for themselves and others is someone who that's fallen asleep and and back into the dream again.
So another way of thinking pope the seven times return is someone who's who's awakened? Who was just a dream. What do you leave? And then those off him and green. And that can happen to real touch. So that is that is that's an alternative meaning to the idea that somehow, there is a self or summary that gets rein actually death why. Now the once return is actually a different situation because part of part of that path entertainment. Is this profound realization? It's a realization that was actually there as a part of stream entry.
Like it's a much it it's the same realization they're much more profound degree in it get one form that it can take he the realization on terms where of the different nickel states that one is constantly going through. And so I'm sorry he is amongst the worst of these. That's the ones you reading it. Second and all of that stuff happen to me. But as the mindfulness on this our like strain improves, There is this awareness that it initially becomes all is continuous of the constant arising and test a away of different mental states.
And becomes clear that the only truly wholesome mental state, the only one that isn't I'm sorry to some degree. Is the one that is completely free from like compulsions of desire in version. And that becomes crystal clear. That is That's part of the insight that leads to the to deem to to that attainment county of one's return. Is that. Is that? All these do you started off in anywhere? All of these mental states only diesel or here are the need have scenario. But they're all proud. Except. For the one, the one kind that happens so rarely in my experience and is so beautiful and it does when my mind is completely free.
Of these compulsions of desired vision, and it's so rare. Now this this college of somebody to become a once return. Now in this case, if once return is not someone do. My accidentally slip into Sunshine you right. The once return he somebody who intentionally dives the into in Sorrow. With a soul purpose but completely up uproot desired. So it's more like to go back to the dream terminology and somebody who wants to return to the dream, but as a lucid dream so that they can't experience the dream and understand that it is the dream.
And be permanently free of the power the in other words. They dream on lose that. And this is the path for once retirement. The next date is the the non return. Which names that person does not returned to some sorry existence. But rather requires another final phase of clarification, which occurs at a room and the realm day is completely free the the violence of desire and version for things of the sensor well. And that's how they probably non return defined. They have overtime their to violence, the free attachment to things through the sensor.
But they do still have the con con i am. They still have a sense of being respect herself, and they cannot help but seeing the world and everything has south and other. This is this was cassidy to be from i'm in the final state. But so so that's. I'm losing myself. Anyway, that's that's a a different interpretation of these three. Right? So we can reconcile the apparent meaning by interpreting it and then how we write? Okay. So let's go to the deeper problem, which is what if i make it this time.
Do get another chance. And you see that is so much a party i thinking. And we can't really he either either I survive and I get another chance, or I don't survive, and I don't give another chance. These are the two views that the Buddha clearly refute in a number of different s. He said there is. Either he said or other people can't say to him, which is it. But yeah there is the belief that this self that I am is destroyed when I die. And is belief. That the self that I am can survive the death of body the solution will find out.
The buddha response. And this this is this is something he find many times in the sutra and it's always the same. The buddhist response is no answer. Wrong question? Well, sometimes he just refuses to answer and somebody else will space something or sometimes they're there's switches in which he uses to answer and then now that comes and says why didn't you tell the answer? Now we think you're some dummy, and you don't really know the. And sometimes the buddha answers the question himself. But whether it comes out in a later discussion with Amanda or whether it's because one of his other followers explains it to the question or whether he is answering.
So it's always the same. Wrong question, the self that you're talking about can't be destroyed. It doesn't exist. It never did exist and that will exist. It's a fig of a year imagination. So it can need a survive nor can i do the destroy. And that's really hard to grasp. Which is which is made clear by the times that the buddha just turns around walks away instead of trying to explain to certain people, but best there's some people that, you know, there's... They're not throwing be with the grasp side.
But what the buddha there on this issue is that. There is something that continues. And it is the causal result. The carbon intentions arise in a being consisting a five aggregates only with no non material cell data attached. Barely live him standing outside. Or hand else. But the the the entity does test hash by aggregate gets. It does act and intent and all of these actions and intentions at consequences. The major consequences during the existence of this entity team but you have put trans aggregate.
Which needs to be understood as it is. K so it it. It is for node two instance the same. Entity. It's constantly changing. The only thing that makes than the entity between the birth and and the the solution of the body pip is the causal continuity of which parts. You know, it's the tall by exact thing. You keep be replacing the handle the key replacing the hit, but it's almost called exactly. Right? This is what flight into. They like to find it's. Right. This is the nature of the entity is this interval of causal connect And this part...
Part of the of the results, the causal results, are of intention is that it creates is own nature its own way of functioning is way saying. So we create the the person that we are. We create your continuously. And in our life, we can see we can examine that mine and see what the consequences of our mental actions and the self project. This is what the Buddha said continues on. You said that one, the five aggregate gets dissipate. That causality continues. So now we can think about there's two things to think of that one we took the philosophical and entertain all the different ways that that causality might continue.
The only other thing we can do is say, well, what is the relationship between what continues. And the the self that I experience, that's let you talk. Okay. We... The itself that we experience seems to be single volume and separate. But we know that In fact, it is multiple constantly changing. They're saying for two inch concerning row. And is in fact totally interconnected with everything that is, whatever that is. It is not separate for separate in lesion. But the appearance that is strain for a sort lifetime.
Which is sustained by this very strong local is other being, okay. It's multiple and is changing, but it's still a kind of self. It's still kind of person put. And it is it does reflect accumulated interactions of parts. And so the personality that you are in the I hand appears. Has something that Aren't buying can isolate sleep and designate it as a thing, and we'll see here has various characters to it. One of the one of the characteristics it has is that it feels like just a separate cell. And that it believes that it's ideal to and what idea are we?
At least until you time screen. After you become straight that, the characters three. Is that it feels like separate itself and it experiences this collection of mental constructs that is useful in functioning in the world. But it knows the that is not. So so prior to becoming and and our hot, an essential part of the structure is either attachment to both the view of separate output or the Aids cell. And the attachment to the has been the standardization of affect yourself or just the attachment to experience of they need mean here sets saw.
The other thing prior to the kind video that are embedded, we've had this interactive mind are raiders and western degrees of enslave that because the word that comes to line eye. Enslave to patterns of behavior generated times desired versions. So i have the ignorance factor in the design versions back version exactly. Now Essentially, this is something that continues. As what the buddha... All of the buddhist teachings have up to is that this continues. Not the personality view, not the structure and even the sense of being cell, it it...
It's not individual as a matter of fact. It is something that's just part that anytime these aggregates come together. That's part of that there is a sense of being set stuff. And this isn't embedded with that. We missed with what containment. So if you become a stream. That is a part That is a part of the reality that will continue after with the solution of at not use, not excel, but rather, you know, just as within the material world consequences out the interactions with matter energy will continue to flow on in the future.
So we'll these mental concert continue and hugely. So you will be new being for. New collections or for, which human in nature will automatically equation and to volume to a sense of being set itself, and which will we won't get into the lost philosophical side something another we'll have it if if you are if if If that being is the recipient, consequences with these mental consequences av or multiple names, have a achieved stream entry, then the mind that forms is going to have little or no attachment to the gave would it it has that and all of was guaranteed that front as a pump because of content strike.
Beings, they are not strain agents. It's a very delicate gradual maintenance easily early not. So there will be b if you achieve extreme? There will be beams in future. Who may enjoy the. And they they need both multiple. And inherit, we can use the word not only the delivery degree at which Near other required if I they made also inherent different degrees but wisdom or lack front other people Now has long as, view, are any subsequent things seize themselves as separate. This doesn't seem like a nearly to deal.
It seems like as as one of the other things about that the believe that was asked about, if just keep problem. Yes, sir. Okay. What are you saying? Is the. Is the inherit of my car? Something else. Okay. It's not need for mean something else. And once again, that question is rooted in the web the inherent sense cell in this case not so but the intense inherent sense of bacon set up. And the believe that that is an accurate here. The this all for some believes said he itself. That of a separate so.
That's their keyword separately. It's all mean someone who believes him separate this inherent sense yourself. That it can that even the question can arise Well, I'm I'm Iv here my or is else. Basically the i the amazon else. It was all part of basic solution. I have a question about Just if you could clarify the kind of knowledge this stream enter requires. I... The impression I had it is that when you realize there's no separate sense of cell, it's like realizing that what you've thought was red all these years does actually dream.
And no matter what Youtube amount of circumstances. It it's a shift in perspective. So if that's the case, but but wait what way you describe it sounds more like you've see this beautiful castle in the air then you really know commitment you you'd get that castle on and all of a sudden, it clouds over and then you didn't when you start forgetting and you you remember... Oh there is that castle. Well was that one about point again, You know, so I guess from your description on like the experiential impact wasn't as as as deep as I thought.
And that what what what I was actually thinking about was the I am, which only manages it the r archives there but. The see I am is always there. So right they... But if the same their is, the ego construct becomes transparent. It's severe, but any anytime it is absurd if there it is absurd investments. The So all the way is due to a slack of mindful awareness. And it's slipping into the visual patterns, I do anything anything feel. But in other words, if you think in line as being this complex hierarchical arranged system many thousands of individual mental processes each of which do is during their bank.
Okay. There are those which can continue to be initiated to do their things even though the think they do, He is no longer relevant i know problem. I had the two but there's then has on hold. That's the work of the once for retention. The real work for the once street is get Reading out all those processes that, they're still there and they started initiated on payments like. Like all programs and they computer but don't feel but. It's like three ports of programming and windows which is all stuff the risk.
Versions that all of those just caused system hang up that. They fit every battery. You still have we still have all access weapons Straight nature still has that stuff and was in fine. And it's it will still get activated at act and and it's hierarchical arranged into systems. And so one of these old programs gets activated all black other programs names and end up tell you with that. Do you? Thank okay. None of which makes sense in terms of your knowledge for your understanding and the goals purchases and directions or or the system as a whole.
Sorry. The system crashes and you reboot. Never good work. Okay. There in different ways that screen entry happened was week was a very interesting thing. But I spent a lot of time thinking up. There's some purchase to practice where not much of it it all happens at the conscious level. No credits happening. And deep cell answers. And I think there's certain disadvantage well that where practices that mean to that they they do not have You don't have as much conscious wisdom you you disposal or come back.
In in that system, it's... It works at a more unconscious level. So eventually, you just realize, hey. Right? I did so profound way that I can actually realize until this moment but it's happening being new. Go back you that? Read this some try with him. Okay? Found. The string mentioned. Believe you when became the screen venture with fiction. What happened is and anticipation of such nurse. Shifted away from delusion towards screws. K. If you did hit five bucks for next day. What that transformation within sex.
It was not a lot. Who's not much for sensor cell or i to explain to. But actually, there's something that often comes to a stream that Although it's bit of an illusion too it provides that provides. A temporary ground or the mine to worry fine. It's very good. That is. If as stream has experience out sure consciousness like Tc is own consciousness. Student. Or if the as a partner of with the process of achieving screen andrea they're really powerful experiences deemed one area then not made separate and everything just can't before.
They're being universal consciousness. That when I look at three even trees looking at back at me... And I separate. It's not secondary. And it's not that I consciously. It's not. It's the consciousness of happening and practice that's is just manifest is being tricky. These kinds of those games was we a really deep imprint. Really valuable You what you want to slip into the thing that we you us forward with somebody about? The true self is consciousness. That's what. Sort others. And does it matter how there's a lot of truth in those state.
What we really are more so than our network construct and our body in is consciousness, but there is no separate with separate nuts in the individual individuality that be experiencing in association with our consciousness is everyday as much conclusion. And the person may have rates return and i'll do. Schools often they just they're saying, there is it yourself and true self is consciousness. And it's also it's not only tree cell in university stuff. There's a degree I'm truth think that. Which makes very easy to realize edward work with the fruits, the realization that you have have.
And if and it feels compatible with the ongoing training sense that I am. You can see remaining separated me. It's really valuable in that regard. Even though from strictly technical point view the idea of the view are your consciousness is illusion. It's a very useful relations so very powerful theme. To the stream for boom that potentially part of the realization there. Then my true self is consciousness here, whenever everybody don't get another person, Do they see his consciousness this? I see myself in now.
Yeah. Maybe the the details of like consciousness experience turned there are a different the details or what consciousness experiences is from here. But fundamentally, there is no difference which between me and here the same after time, but that kind of That's very powerful. Was very very niche. We and if highly conducive to calculating creating compassion. And long you honor having true compassion voted cheaper. Are only pre tax and self strain history. Got upon string entry genuine in the effect.
That now there is a direct experience. That I am on different thing hidden near each of degree. I this gives rise with him my eye to kind compassionate mirrors or or Jam. Everything that flows out of about here's that. To the degree with some parts that you're mind are still desperately trying find in some way to salvage that is precious and did allocate When you can see yourself and everyone helps, then You are going to be rewire and everything that is ever worn in the future. And Therefore anything you do pulse number on pulse including that consequences system in essence is effective mute.
So you are most definitely you most definitely the of all the timeline. And and be rather than looking back to try to find some particular individual you were in in the past. You you pass lawyers you were every sentient thing that's every there. Every. And you are the inherit of that front store. And the whole thing that Bo the continue not for coming and the jumped. And the Ava consciousness and the mind or streams are consciousness us. Is it these are all based On. On things that are... I was gonna say change said.
Genuinely treat me business say things that are. Genuinely, natural outflow of You that time. The part of them that is not the changed that they all carry because of the brilliant scholars couldn't work with all of these things have not machine with sufficient to degree rehabilitation. Because they want him make them into individual. They want to make them into too. Individual mind that continue to for impact series of discrete cycles up. That's the only tape. Yes. And and it's so obvious when new study these things.
As soon as somebody introduced no matter how they disguise it know want. As soon as they introduce a separate itself into the theory of rwanda are theory of Ava of the theory of the of the theory stream consciousness next. It just stands la. Oh can't get. You can't feel with me. I see right. It's like the whirlpool pool and stream knowledge? Somehow. Every whirlpool has its own screen. I don't have so. One of the immediate fruits of stream entry, that you experience. Is the sense of being liberated from the attachment to an eagle view.
It's just it's a sense for a leader. And for a period of time, It completely masks the attachment of still names that essentially separate cell. It's immigration but from that. Ego go. Three different from fear. Yeah. Life is a series of decisions and choices. But that changes in subtle way when it's no longer have attachment to the ego structure. Even though just still see yourself as a second selling. The word decision? Actually, we they're the latin roots. It means more like cut light. Because when you make a decision, we are eliminating possibility all decisions or sometimes in any possibilities.
So to make a decision is to lose possibilities to degree that new experience yourself and terms of construct in terms of an ego, Decisions are terrible things because you're the potential for the loss there for making the wrong decision throwing online quick. But even after you've made the decision looking back such, but for invade conversation. Alright. That goes in way, and there are no void decisions. Instead there are choices and stripes become much more like the choice. When somebody he takes a box to sort chocolates.
And it's too wet. Say. K. Well, you don't know what you don't know what you're gonna get. What every it is is gonna be great. And So one of the fruits or stream entry is that proliferation app. That that's any any different way. Right. An important part is what happens to you And what happens is a consequence right from things like that. You just no longer has saying degree court. Life series or choices, but not decisions. And i lightning you pick. It's gonna have something good. Anything happening?