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Stronghold Retreat 8 July 2011


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Well Anybody have hang on your mind? Alright. Yeah. We you talk a little bit more about the principle of code dependent origin, that one? Day. Yes. Toyota Canada dependent. Yeah. Yeah. By judgment. Yeah. Okay. Well, the basic the basic principle is one that of causality, everything everything is due to cause segmentation. There's nothing that not. That that that doesn't have console origins agents. The way it's on sometimes put is because This is that is when this is not that is not. If that's the basic principle.

Okay i don't turn it. So so that's the principle. Yeah. But I they are able they commonly spoke out the links of dependent origin origin education, which is describing specifically the causal origins how to subjective self all moment. This twelve light. And have the twelve links divided in three parts. The first part representing the past that with has a cause. Actions are committed current actions, which lead to the person. The second part is a description of what happens in the present. And the third part is the description of the consequence and the future.

So the third part is as a result of the second part which chance but go your moment it has... The second part has any client center. So there's two links at the beginning. For ignorance where Adrian says it cause. Their our accidents. And the last part is as a result of what happens in the present. There is rebirth. And as a result of rainbows. There is suffering aging and death. So the important part in terms of understanding are the a links in the middle. Okay. And the first, the first is consciousness are ordinary dual consciousness.

Consciousness out visual things, things, old factory things, gust things, so now sensory things and mental. Had when buddha taught it, he said, with consciousness cause, Donna and. Right. Right. And and Ru is i condensed away you're saying the five aggregates, not un Roomba or the five aggregates. You generally the five. If you just name them, I think I think did. But The the first is they have got a form, which on the line had is everything which material the examiner to closely realize, we only know the material physical world.

By means in our sensor. So back his sensation. That's the first time you're getting. The second is the aggregate of feelings, a pleasant an unpleasant neutral the he or effective of experience. The third aggregate is perceptions. It is as a result of sensory experience, we perceive something you perceive a person her car trade The fourth aggregate is the aggregate formations. All of the construct created by mine includes all his thoughts, yeah, memories and your promotions. It also includes current previous predisposition.

You're into your past conditioning? Alright. Technically, both feelings and perceptions are also natural construct. They're also mental formations, but they're separated out in the five because of the u. So the fourth is the rental formation initiative shift is the consciousness is the ones that I just identified as the first of the eight links in the present moment part. Okay. So that that's the five aggregate. And what said of the is that there is no self. Or has no individual. Other than these five aggregates.

Okay. So when the buddha was describing the origin and they identified the link of consciousness with consciousness as it cause not by rise. And then he said something very interesting, which he doesn't stay about the he says. And these two fold back upon themselves with non root that as cause, consciousness arises. Oh. Okay. So these always occur together. And Could you just think about a little bit, You could kinda... You... You can see the sense then that. And it's a very fruitful area to pursue.

Or deeply, the relationship between consciousness and environment but. Okay. So that's the first two. With not and out there is however they're a the sense basis. That spaces means the fire ordinary physical sensor ends and the mine which text mental object. Okay. And so with the five aggregates very one which sensation then there are sensory phenomena that occurred and have perceived And the result is their conscious. There's consciousness of those sensation. So with not on as, there are they sense basis with a sense basis as a cause comes to contact the next first of these like Contact is when sen object acts as the stimulus for sensor and the part of the line that process at.

Produces a percentage and the consciousness prices okay. So with the sense space as a cost, contact. But contact doesn't a cause. Feeling arises. And that that's the the feeling it's described just one of the. Pleasant advertising neutral. Right. And this is an important point. I mean, it is logical that It it is said that every experience, every kind of experience. I looked not the logic or a sense object. Gives eyes to a feeling of plasma plus neutral. You see there's no other possibility. Right?

How to being easy put unpleasant or neutral. So it's a it's one those inevitable more change. But here we're starting to get into the meat of it. But feeling raising a feeling positive digital arises crazy. That's the sixth lane. Okay. And then with creating has a cause, der arises the grasping cleaning attachment, the reunification that I talked about by night. Okay. Nice that. With verification as a cause. I'm grasping as a regards. How would you like to phrase it? Better arises they hate be coming.

Okay. And so that completes the links that have describe what happens in the present moment. So you you become something that the whole process is going to repeat. So what you have become as a result of these lanes. Arises, that's the rebate. Had yet and disappears. And out of the ignorance that, you know, the ignorant that under underlies the craving and attachment and the coming. There comes the action. So one the hazy wait when you look back at the first two, whole cycle starting over again, you can see that the ignorance.

And the car action is really summarizing the eight links in between. Because the ignorance is what. The ignorance is the rank of a craving. Okay. Ignorance just not to root to feeling like. But taking this and root of creating is as a result of craving his grasping pain as a result of grasping. There's becoming hazard but becoming We form intentions. We have thoughts to say things, and we perform actions. So in other words, we come of being doing something to satisfy creating that's should. So you see that's the current mechanics?

So the whole pay can be described to as due to ignorance, primary action exit. Yeah has a result of coming. A being is born barn inevitably, that moment itself in the moment. It's just the temporary construct and is bound to to suffer agent diet. Is is there a place in that system for reflection and learning. Well, it it's not a simpson it's a described. Just the description of what's happening over and over happens... Yes. The thing is that you can bring mindful awareness to every step of the process.

Reflection not turn of But well, actually, you can apply the intellectual exploration to every step from the process and it has to understand. But the it's maybe forward reflection. Is the mindful awareness when he was aware of, oh what it that happen? Oh, what saying, you know, and you could see the whole process. And he come to recognize it. I mean, of course, the first year only catching it in bits some pieces. And then however time, you can save it more thirdly. But the the reflection is not with within.

The serial relative reflection that's applied to the process. Okay. As a result of that reflection you can You can recognize the weakness of the site out this week. It's we click is the craving. Or if you look at where it's summarized in just the two the wink link is ignorance. If you get eliminate to, you'll learn right if you limited the creating that you've broken in the cycle. And so, you know, the the dependent origin is also expressed in the opposite form. You know, the general principle is when this is this is lying down time.

But also follow this one when when this you can go backwards through the whole series. You can look at it is what is? What the way that sometimes presented is how can we bring about any end to suffering aging and death? That's the twelfth thing. Okay. When the answer it is when there's no rebirth there is no suffering aging and death. How do we bring it enter? I there's is no becoming. There's no. How do we bring into? To county. But there's no grass paint. There's no time. How do we bring an grass when just don't grab there is no craving.

There's no grass. Now that is that's the... That's the link that can't be programmed. Link can do altered. Because I mean, see it's not self evident. To somebody just presenting this through you that that that is really the only link that it makes sense because one might mistakenly believe and you could, for example, break the of feeling. Got a closer examination you discover that It is the nature of mind to experience pleasant unpleasant in response to any experience at any time. So that... That's not worthwhile like to work.

If you worked through back through the other ones or from failing to contact in the saas bases and non under but. And and consciousness, you have the same easily well, yeah. Okay. This isn't where to work on. Crave creating is not any need to work to break the cycle to enter interrupt the cycle. And this is the Blake dependent origin organization provide the good regulations for pain enlightenment experience. And what happens. When somebody has been practicing the Da. And they had strong insight into the characteristics by existence that I talked about last night.

And they have very strong. Then literally what happens is moment, but the line is generating reality and itself as a part of it over and over again. Like to a monkey traveling through the tree tops from branch to branch. Right? That's go one. No center, let's go one then out the next, and that's go this way it grab x. Right. And so this is the process that goes over and over and over again. But it comes a for a Yogi. On the mind is is continued with insight and. And it sees it sees the process of dependent imagination, and it arrives at the length of training and declines to go forward.

This the mental formations cease in that moment. And so there is You see the mental formations are the objects of consciousness. And so there is was called a pure consciousness experience. Or consciousness that has no object, but itself or consciousness without an object. If you look into the mystical literature of the different traditions cesar are turn frequently see. You you may have already come across enough? No. I haven't been the consciousness with that. Right. In pure consciousness. Our hard turns that are sometimes used to...

Well quite frequently. But the idea here is that this mysterious illuminati eliminating quality of the mind. That is the basis of consciousness. If that quality is present, and the mind cease to generate reality again. Than that what is eliminated is the fact that older has ever been. Is this formation, mental foundation. And the line stops, generating a have this the the mind now has this as a completely new ding. It has to assimilate then the process of dis and, it changes the way it works. So again, just the the description and what happens and the fruition moment.

Is that and the way the way it's experienced or anyways experience, one way you can be experienced is that person might be meditating for example. And and image arises in their mind. Maybe of a loved one a child. And in that incident, the insight fully itself. So there is a recognition that that the being that represents doesn't exist? Or doesn't exist anymore. I mean, everything everything's permanent. That's an image from the past it's just somebody doesn't exist anymore. Yeah there is no self that.

And then if the if the inside is right, there's a realization that there is no there there is no self of any kind, and this is all projections of the line. So this is the result of the hand side. Now if there is also, see normally what happens is arises, as it passes away, the line goes through something else. It maybe if may it may reproduce the image over and over down anyway, maybe associated with all kinds of thoughts about whatever the image represents represents a person thoughts about that person feelings about that person.

Memories about that person. That's normally what happens. But probably would happens to you and meditation right now, if i damage measure or somebody opposed posterior rise of You said thoughts about them and memories and stuff like that. Mh. It just it just happens. And it'll fade way and do it base by something else. Mark little thing that happens. So is the image arises. And instead of seeing it as that person. There's this realization that this is a projection of the line is empty that person doesn't exist anymore.

And that's, like, shock to the system. And if there is sufficient, if it's not not like Whenever either to bind will run away from this. It'll will generate something on. Because there's enough heck activity provides just stops. And how long it stays false. Doesn't really matter. Although there seems to be a benefit from it. Something longer because this gives more time for the limiting impact eliminating power of consciousness too. Do its work. But. That produces a transformation person in terms of dependent.

You arrived. If there's been contact there is feeling. And now just at the point where paging would arise due to into inside and, it has. The link has been broken. So there's a there's a gap there. And that that's what that's a transformative gap. Is that the point at which this the self then can be surrendered? That's the point at which The self has for a moment to andrew. K. And temporary experiences in which the self has been surrendered. The beginning of the process and the end of the process is what experience and most self per.

The result of those first experiences is the loss of the ordinary attachment we have to the ego construct. And we still feel like yourself, even though we feel like the self physical experience, we know that that isn't true too. Well we can't change the fact, we still feel like it's but the there is a transparency now to the ego That was over be there before. And that's So that's that's the ego end and then comes cell. Stuff. Much more Monday mundane and question. Okay. Do you have any opinion on shortness where nine of sipping times pros and cons?

Well, in in terms of a general recommendation to work your way up to longer setting times is enormously beneficial things happen as a result how longer cities that just i or not nearly likely to happen in short steady. So just in general, it's good towards your grab to understanding. And then and laundry retreats, policy everyone ends up sitting for a longer periods of time. And people have been long managers were very typically, you know, two weeks into to an extended week being meditating through four hours at a time.

Because that extra time yeah just it it goes places. But that said, Word the words worked up to really important, because there's a point of diminishing returns. If you just say to yourself well like i said, I'm gonna sit for an hour and you're not really ready to sit for an hour. You'll reach your point at half an hour or forty five minutes where from that point on is just start worse and worse and worse the distract ability or all or whatever just diminishing returns. And and that can actually be harmful, but it's everything you did conditions mine line is mind is such a plastic thing.

And so if you end up forcing yourself to sit longer than you really camp over and over again, if you're going to you're going to experience a lot of un hold attitudes mental behaviors and things like that that are actually gonna be counter counterproductive. So it's important that you work your way up to longer so rather than than try to do it through sheer well power things like that. Also, The metadata state can be maintained without sitting continuously. So you can meditate for six hours or eight hours or ten hours, but alternate sitting and walking and even include that.

Having meals and going to bathroom and things like that. Because absolutely everything can be done as some meditation. And it really should be. And so in general or you're trying to go this lawyer? You're always in the meditation. Else. Okay. But back to the practical aspects, of how long a person actually sit still on the cushion. A lot depends on the stage of the person's meditation. And and also there's some variability and and the factors. Somebody who ordinarily can they said for an hour a time quite easily.

Can't under certain certain on circumstances. Not be able to do a productive way, and that being the case, it it might be. And they really should The important thing is not for them to have to rely on somebody else to say well, this, you know, instead of doing that, you should meditate for twenty minutes to take break and twenty minutes and kentucky. Right. Should be able to look at the quality and vegetation themselves and say, okay. This isn't working why don't I tried meditating for twenty minutes.

I'll watch a little lot. Now I'll come back and say. Things like that. And as a meditation teacher i'd often applying myself but somebody's he's having a particular difficulty day time. That it it seems like the best solution is to suggest to and they might do shorter periods of meditation and know might do different kind of meditation And so having said the longer medications are better got frequently telling be to do several your medication. As matter I I usually found the meditation schedule in such a way that part of each day, people, you know, people can follow or old only leading the meditation hole and the bell and still adjust their own meditations to be longer or shorter to needs are.

I kinda flexibility really. To answer question. Yeah. I was wondering. Yeah. Absolutely. There's still one part. I wondering if if the reverse can happen where you sit for lot and longer, but it's the mind gets habit in a sense of like a an engine a slow engine starting up. So the longer the more time the mind has to kinda get going. Maybe and in a sense, collapsing that time forcing the mind to feel like, you don't have the low panel for the hour hour and and not for whatever, you know, does it ever work in there...

In other words. It's... Yeah. Does that make sense. Yes. I I do. I I know what you're saying. And that does happen. That happens broken in terms of individual sits. It is a kind of lax. And if you recognize that you can overcome it with with diligence. Every sith who begins with... Well, no sense begin with a certain amount of distraction and instability of the line and and we learned to go through things that settle down and get a focused yet. And You can unintentionally become lax since that's your way that, you know, you'd meditate for forty five minutes, but you spent half an hour.

Getting to the real part. Just because, you know, you've got the whole time to play with. And and the this correction for that is to recognize what you're doing. And that's again, this is where a teacher is helpful because usually, it's not why the student makes the report saying, well, you know, my meditation is they only really get good, just a few minutes before the bell rings. And is is there way I can speed that up, but the answer is yes. There is. What tell you what you're doing, when you first sit down.

And if that acts the there, then you can overcome it. There is another form it takes. He had longer treatments. He yes you If you are energy for five days, for example, and you you want to maximize the beneficiary of the retreat, you know, you're going to be... You're gonna be pretty diligent right down the box. Day after tomorrow, or treat already already have. But if you've just entered a three month retreat, for. Ninety days. I a hundred days. Just the tendency is that you're... Your first day's meditations are they they tend to be pretty loose anyway.

Like, the first one might be like your ordinary dataset say is. But throughout the first day, you'll have a lot of a lot more distraction almost things Like that usually do. And if you're be going into a wrong lung I have the experience of going into a partner retreat d around for and there's a tendency to do that. So so you're absolutely right. The idea that well, it only got so much fun. Ken can't help to keep you for doing it. And it's a very classic sort of thing that took over count. The the Camden for w lax.

The antidote for lax is to meditate on a shortness of life. So thank you about. I don't know how go And I better do it down. Oh yep. Alan i could be like, i live. Why am I sitting here wasting my time? Alright. Yeah. I I I could say to... There's a lot of people in that account. It's the ones in some form now they're already come conclusion. They're coming out party isn't it gonna do it. Wants to say. Okay. Parties I'm gonna do it. I don't know how long i live. I better get serious about this. Yeah.

Good question. Good. Yes. I you with a server. Better a physical question. I'm gonna switch Tracks serum. Ask you a better bit know i said. But when, you were talking a origin organization that was very interesting could like sort of It come to my mind a different image. And maybe that... I image it's also addressed in a different farm or something. Because when I first heard those words, I thought it meant everything arises together, like, things kinda coin influenced each other. And happen together like, they're like, a relationship.

Like, things have a relationship to each other, like, you're not really separately everything that happens kind of happens in It does mean that too. Absolutely everything is interconnected. And we tend to think and linear sequences of causality and Actually, buddhist, the guardian is the most famous. To prove logically things can't actually be that way. Instead of it. The the the logical... Or sorry, this linear causality that we think we see, is just as much a projection on the line as the separate entities that we think we see.

Mh. Right. Really everything is interconnected. This can will happen been. That there is a... The code dependent are code had aspect that that's referring to that. Yeah. When in the in in the champ apparent arising, the the sense organ is the mind and the form is a thought. When that happens and then sensation right isn't it actually creating on so forth. What it's the the idea itself or i thought itself is is it thought like I want hiding and done that cream. I mean, the phone office is already a desire.

Well, yeah. That thought. The the many of her thoughts most of most of our thoughts in fact. A rise in consciousness totally formed. There's all kinds of skips have taken place that led up to that finished thought. So... yeah, what you experience consciously. Is and target I okay. But that's the result of some things that happened. So conscious like. Had had dependent matter. Okay. Yeah. Because my question was it's not inc that the subconscious thought that would be a occurring also be I thought I won't hog ice cream.

Or would it... Or or in terms of or or would it be, like, image of h and bus ice cream concept itself or... Well it depends. Like, you know, the The second time i not the second time prior to the second time you ever have recognized experience. Reply. Assembled from the of the start elements of that experience. The one thousandth of time he had the thought i an part ice cream. That whole thought already rests and some part of self conscious mind it has a fully formed entity. All it needs to be is the flips the switch fl.

Otherwise it doesn't have to be created. You know, i. Okay. Yeah. This like the pulse... I mean, I don't know my impression of this. Before the thought of one ice cream. There's some kind of an impulse and it's a large pumping like there's a craving or sugar back chocolate or something. And it's like a physical thing that happens. And then they kind of pops with thought like, oh, well on that. Okay. Oh well, yes. That's right. What you might not be conscious of a specific object. What you become conscious of is the craving to satisfy a desire for a certain kind of pleasure.

Sometimes what you can conscious out is is the desire for Something Sweet. Yes. So sometimes it's like a taste lost like. I don't know. That's that's why you would say when it's like a taste buds. It's like a taste image or something? Yeah. That might have not something. And so that already has the you're right already has the desire built into it. But there was there was some some step in the process before the desire for rows where. The pleasure? The the feeling like that the the thought of the pleasure that you would like to have.

I have... That was big before you get the craving because... Because I got the craving is like a physical thing, you know, it's like i don't know. I don't know if the matter gonna see what i came first but what you have to distinguish between this... What you are consciously aware of and what has lit up to what you're consciously aware. You could being consciously aware. Of the font of the pleasure that proceeds when. You can be. Definitely. But you aren't always something that happened had a subconscious well, and all the year consciously where is is the crazy.

So it can happen? Says could happen can't this. Or it could only just be the the final thing that that files stepped in the process. I guess I seems really just kinda direct but communication that happens that's not about thought. Like a lot of times either I look at the food and i know how much take. Yeah. And i which things to take. Or we can put the morning, you know, one eat no. What do you want not team And like, what's gonna feel good and what's that, you know? And then I also feel like with a kind of bodily communication that's that Like the body knows somehow, but I don't know how much not much deleted this is.

Yes. What it mean. But what you're calling what you're calling your body, you know, gets it you're in testing knows. Or some blood vessels that have? Possibly. Yeah. That possibly is part of they say that there's a heck lot of nerves that good. Some people actually say it's like a second one ring. While you're just have their own nervous system nerd that in. Yeah. Yeah. It's really interesting like there's also a lot of dirt tissue in your brain that is dedicated to to those kinds of processes as well.

Yeah. The feeling a plunger as parts of your brain that are responsive to the concentration of glucose and fats and proteins and things like that and the blood. Mh and creates sensations of hundred or tie. That's the other thing. There's a society center. So... Yeah. You you you're body... What you're referring to is body. Test body it's tissue there's things like that. But what you're really saying is that there things that you're conscious of and there's the things that that you didn't they they come about that you're not conscious I do.

They all be conscious of, but and the result of the process. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And if you if you... If you're sensitive to that, and you pay attention to that, you are naturally going to select the kinds of things and eat the quantities of food. That are going to more likely be good for you. Mh. Somebody who paints a lot of sugar and fat takes like activist his vet program he's really paying as double attention at all to that information. I don't think ryan gets messed up somehow maybe. Alright. There messed up somehow this to do thing that's but you can you know, you you can condition yourself to ignore those things and you can condition yourself to to to find kinds satisfaction and the exit our like victory.

In terms of critical moments along the path or when would... What are the best titles on the path to have a teacher shirt? Help you out at some of those critical moments. Well, Anytime i one pass a good time to have her a good teacher, but I think you're asking me. You know, similar the what of the critical time. Some... If someone semi me nomadic, you know, and what are the most important time or somebody semi asymptomatic Well, when you enter new major cases of cultivation of your practice. So because you you want to, you know how to get off on the right front.

Oh, you. First start tonight. You should have the teacher. And then when you get to stage four, which is the first milestone at that point, you're no longer in all here. Now. It can be described as a as a skilled medi. You have a lot more skill to develop that you're now in a category. That's a really good time to have a teacher for space. And the same thing happens so you get to the seven states. And now you you you finished paying a skill now you're getting ready to to i'm had adapt and that's a really good time to have a meditation teacher.

And likewise you get to the eight stage and there's a lot of things there that they just... They're not a part of your experience and it has really helpful to have the guidance for somebody else which Already been through it. So those files really important critical points for having any teacher. Do you have a good teacher in the worst stage then they can give you the information you need to work through way soon fit six stage. Because there a where those stages are... Just hi I'm working. Okay.

How do to wait No pressure. No pressure. Yeah. Very much. Pressure. Pressure. I feel pressure. That feels good. It feels like good pressure. Before the end of the retreat, you asked this afternoon enter interview. But there was something that I have, that I wanted dad happen to be putting near, but on the end of the on Sunday. One of the things that I would like to have is for for you to maybe discuss what what the next steps would be? I know everybody's individual, but and it it it doesn't need to happen now, but that's thought that encourage me.

Okay. So what happens in the transition back to quote unquote normal life? Okay. Yeah that is that is something. We we will have a... We'll have a session together on Sunday. Yeah we'll talk about that very important thing because you've been in silence and meditating for ten days. The world meet. The world shocked. Yeah. Talk about that. The other thing is I think we're a small enough group. That we can talk about sort of the the future practice names all of. And I'm suggesting that we do it in that way because, you know, you are had different places in your hard.

And it's really good to hear not just what you need to do next, but about what else is gonna happen to along. So that that's what we'll do on as well. All the session. Any pressing questions that you have we can deal with. But we'll talk about making a transition and also how to continue your practice and most beneficial. Try to call. So you hear lot about when people have this experience of non separate of, but every month on. Well, that was Not necessarily. And we have any sort of our strengths whether it's, you know, an official stage of like when not.

A lot of people such just experience experiencing cell and governance and all that. People say when they have experience states francis this unconditional love or boundless compassion. And I just wondering if you talk a little bit about that Well, there are a variety of different kinds of experiences that people can have. Mystical experience. Gail Unconditional Found compassionate. That's kind of experience person can have the feeling of the dissolution of self. So caitlyn being won was everything?

Or the dealing of being pavement pure witnessing consciousness from a completely still point. These a different kinds of experiences the people can have And and there's more than that. But to actually do They can. They can be their term take experiences. Peak experience is something that is really memorable. But you have the six minutes since very intense gonna things are what system memory. So you can have these experiences as that kind of deep experience. You can learn something from these experiences because.

You can have peak experience with. Preview you with a deep understanding. And sometimes these peak experiences can have a potentially transforming effect money. Actually, near death experiences are are they told this kind of gray as well. It's not about experience. Although experiences like this, important But it's very important not to confuse experiences with personal transformation spiritual transformation. Because experiences isn't just that there's something that happens has result of causes and conditions or it causes and conditions absolutely away.

The experience is gone. You may or may not have learned something from that may or may not be changed by it. Really concerned and they say enlightenment that. It's really referring to a profound transformation And we talking about like happening. It stages. That means that there's one transformation. And that later on this that transformation that. But each of these transformations is it's it's a permanent shift. It's not an experience that happens in then past flight. But the transformations are right down.

As a result of experiences and often at the point of transformation, not always. But often at the point of transformation, there's a profound experience. So this is what call it makes it so easy for people to become attached to the idea of experience and can confuse experiences with the transformation. So what you have kind of experience I talked about? Earlier or the mine? Stops. But you are fully conscious. That is an amazing experience. And it it has a powerful residue that will last hours for days or in some cases, you know, maybe even wait.

But it hits an experience. It comes goes. Well his significance is not in the experience. That all it's in the transformation that right out. And what I sound really interesting is that not everyone has wow he's hourly amazing experience. Other people, but i just kinda gradually get there and they can never exactly say, you know, they can... They can't say it. I had this Cool. I can't tell you. So not only that only shouldn't. Not only is it a mistake to get hung up on experiences when they're not what it's read about the transformation, the results for experience here's very true out.

So the only thing that happens is that if you get you're can become convinced to be ideal that have to have an experience. And you impede your own spiritual growth of maturation because you know, I want my experience. I want this amazing thing to happen. And it doesn't have. It seems like more often than not at least in the buddhist traditions and following methods that we do. More often than there seems to be an experience that's quite intense and that happens at a particular time, and you can say well, There was this one day, and this is what I was doing and.

Then this experience it out but not. I get it what your question was? And so? I really answered. I realized it most so what I was doing. Who was responding to my own reaction. When you said experiencing being one with everybody enlightenment right? You put those two together, and that's really what I was responding to. So it may not be quite right early asking. No. It's it's helpful. That's I've ipad experiences know, experiences. I don't know if they're transported on some I think they were. And I it caused me to have this boundless compassion for everyone and this sense of grace that I was saying what that work by the entire universe.

Yep. And I don't It seems like that's not really talked about buddhism. I mean, I it's Janet they talk about grace a lot and they talk about unconditional love and that sort of thing. And seems some more focused on. Okay? Did is this happens this that's happened. And I just wonder if there's an aspect it doesn't that includes those things. There is. And there's many different strange of it some will emphasize those kinds of things either. Of jack corn. I don't know that biggest person to read now, but that's the came to mind.

Depends chat. He's he definitely more interested in and pricing. Compassionate. But what you're saying is is that you have had experiences that have transformed to that these and the transformation. They're really important. And that's great. So now, there's other transformation. So you can even you know can built on that with without transformation. And that's really... That's really how it happens. You You have you have extensive of. That take the form of insights or understanding. And the experience passes away.

Right. The the inside doesn't it brings about some degree there would the energy transformation. When they talk about port stages of awake by. Those say have the experience. And going felt transformative to. How would you know that were the first path? Or is there a certain set of criteria that you say, oh, this happened this happened all, I must speed must be manager. Yes. They're there are. There are a certain criteria that to define these stages. So how they're only four stages of like like...

Alright. Some of the deep experience that that you may have before that if they're transformative they could do you know, the zero at stage i'm like four. The four stages of the enlightenment buddha time twenty. One of the ones. That was how he formulated it. But once he identified has being the most important. And if you look and see how identified that was might that. But it is not the case that those four stages self existent real sorry. Mh okay. Okay. They're they're hard hear. It's like between birth and adulthood.

I do through a lot of changes. And you can divide down but there's an a number ways we could potentially divide that up. You know we probably most of us because of our cultural background see well know about the time that child starts school, but that that marks an important change. And likewise and but they reach puberty and from high school, and things like that. If it's not gonna else that. And of of course, the boot is the way that buddha chose to define those four stages I cream. But they can be interpreted in ways.

And somebody else could come along and down identify those stage differently and the they have divided it up into Produce such Boom or levels. And the one that's most common now is the one that is in to tibet is twelve body on movies. But there's systems with our kinds of different numbers are the beer presentation of twelve dummies. Was a recognition that the Buddhist four stages wasn't an absolute criteria. Have the fact that in other schools, but are less prominent now that they came up with sixteen, we means different numbers of boom.

Is also a reflection of that. So... You know, three is a certain. Yes. And you could you could save to everybody who's achieved some particular, they give any realization or kind he could put an label to them. Also, there's a it's not just one realization. It's a combination of or one transformation. It's a combination of transformations. And there's a tendency to present it in a more linear way than it really is. Because if you ten different things have to change. There's different orders in which they could change.

So i so do you see what I'm saying? No, we need some framework you talked with that. Add pretty much universally and the buddhist train. Mark first stage it's called the strain enter. The first stage of the light night. And this is a stage that you will out fall background. And things things that happened prior to that are subject to being going lost or i'm undone or just simply not lost her done the overwhelmed i other things. But the specific changes but the definition of stream entry, it's an arbitrary definition, but it's a useful one.

It says what's a person has overcome? The attachment to the ego first once they've seen through that. They'll never go back from that. Once they have had that glimpse of reality, don't ever blame in rights and rituals and magic again. That was the second criteria booting kate us. You i believe it writes rituals magic didn't. I don't still next to. Now the third one is that at this point. All of your doubts about the the efficacy of practicing the darn disappeared because you because you achieved it.

So that's the third one. So these really pretty simple and straightforward. When you've actually achieved something that has been described, you lose out. And when you when you seen through a particular illusion, like that the ego itself is real. You know, it's that it's the wizard of oz fact that I talked to about. You really can't that again. You can ignore it. Can you get cut up in goods still? And you can ignore it well, you can get caught. You can't get caught up in believing and ego can get caught up and behavior patterns that were created when.

And so you can ignore what you know and go on out of that entirely up to a certain point. But you can't no something. That's the thing about, you know, it's by healthy lightning matter away and it gets it's a realization that you know once you've seen, you can't... I I know it. You can't stop don't hit any anymore. And so that's like it's chosen and just defined hand those terms. So when you have that realization, know that you got it. You can't say, oh, maybe did I meet those three criteria now We've i've had it sometime a few weeks ago.

Yeah. The the problem is not if you had that experience, i wanna have. The problem is not having not not that experience our transformation. We don't wanna catch just... The problem is not having had that transformation and not knowing it. Because had that transformation there. The problem is not having had that transformation. Thinking. Right. So you may think. And if you do think you have he may actually have or you may not. That's the problem. But that's why that's why the criteria there the guidelines in there.

And I course somebody who has not hunting on that transformation. Will not be in tell whether you've had or not. Somebody else that has will be able to tell whether you have up by observing you over a period time. And the over period the time part is really important in the tier lot tradition to his a standard. That when when the the statement appears to have achieved stream entry. The teacher waits two years to make sure it's real. Think. You know, and and and that's Telltale signs... But the thing is that you can have perfect and there can be other things going in the as well, you can.

Meditations that give you so much joy and that you look to everyone else right and you think here and enlightened. You know, in other words there are things, but none these things not the intention a dramatic experience. Won't last that long. It's not gonna last two years. If you observed somebody for two years, you're gonna help This is for real realized it's not it's gonna become out. At least if you have undergone that transformation yourself, then you can tell those true and somebody else. But even in the biden tradition, the student isn't waiting two years say, well, I didn't know whether I did or not.

I was wondering... The students pretty share. Right? But at the end of two years, if the teacher confirms it, then this thing is knows that they're not diluting themselves. They're not only pretty sure, they have an external renovation perhaps for that they reached the second stage. What's. They're in the second stage the third well. Seeing... Yeah and that's the thing that there's is no somebody has that's to the second stage, which has its own criteria of the third states, which has its criteria then it could it makes it even more unmistakable.

Fact quite honestly, two years is kind of that's kind arbitrary thing is. Probably the long... Right I'm just telling you that because this is this is what is is often said and the tradition. That it takes two years of an observation and for sure. Now These criteria are also subject to interpretation. Gather you're familiar with some people trying to be or out there too. Kind of fault and knows say... They claimed to be hard hearts. And then they say, but what buddha said about our hearts isn't and truth?

Mh. What's the biggest say about monitoring turner isn't true. Because we are hot till we're not that ways so we hope I I just... I... My reaction is just is so unusual You your old system. Don't call. If unless you're gonna fit into the system or the description of which are from which are outcomes. Jessica have a reading Daniel book in more like. This guy has the biggest ego So just to confirm, when you have... When you reached the first stage during eight stage my? It's absolutely transformative permanent.

Yes. You don't lose it? You don't notice understood. That's how the ability define it. So then know, certainly, it's not a arbitrary. If that's the point where it becomes from it. That that's right. The the transformation itself is not part where returning What returning. Is the choice. Of that particular criteria, that particular transfer information But Thing is I agree with a buddha that that's a pretty good, you know, that's a pretty good criteria. What could be, like another enlightenment transformation that could all that say be substituted to prevent.

Because I mean that's what i always hear about. He's substitute for that. Yeah. The transformation that you always realize that you're not a separate itself you said that enlightenment is comprised of series of different. Right. Yeah. What's what are some other those? You some of the the ones associated with the subsequent stages of like that? The traditionally. Sorry. Are you asking about what the transformation associated with subsequent stages Of like now? Just in other really assessment. So I was I was talking about the the buddhist transformations, but you I, but I thought you describe it in such a way that it wasn't so much that the other transformations followed from that initial transformation, but is that there were different transformations going on maybe on certainly related to each other...

Well, then there a number of others say because Andy said that he has had an experience, but leaves him He I finance correctly permanently transformed in terms of sense of love and compassion. It's transparent Pardon. And you are you permanently changed in terms of how at least degree. In your line. And what I'm saying is that's quite possible. The buddha did not choose that transformation has one the he label as as the stream, the first stage in writing. The experience that Andy has had By not be potentially overwhelmed by circumstances.

Mine or might not potentially be lost. But once he Once he has experience, a complete dissolution of attachment to the ego, he's not going to lose that. And he's not going to lose to love. And the compassion that feels now. It's not going to be subject to being over overwhelmed fading noise way. Somebody else may a team non attachment to the personality here and be a extreme measure in the buddhist description and have not yet getting transformed in terms of loan compassionate. But that will happen that ultimately does happen and it may not happen until the third or fourth stage.

The buddha of chose not to use that as a defining criteria, not that it doesn't happen. And it can happen before the one he did choose. Where it can happen after the one he. But. That transformation will have. But there is what makes the personality view and the sense of inherent cell. So important. And this is what the Buddha sees to upon is that it is this attachment to the inherent sense of itself. That continues to fuel the comp of desire integration of creating. And until is completely eradicated.

There are still some vest of desired aversion. Even the not return her although has no desire for things since as the craving for existence and the creating production. So the buddha his a... Okay. I'm saying this was arbitrary, but I'm saying at the same time. I can understand why he chose the things that he did. And why he attached the importance to them, that he did. Because the things he chose we're in his understanding the root things, the most important things. And once there had been a transformation with regard to those things.

Then it could only support and reinforce and sustain the transformations in terms of the other characteristics. Like love compassion. That makes sense? The other question I thought you were answering, I'll address a little bit. You weren't asking about other traditions, but i know the tradition it. And the Christian tradition, when person overcomes the ego self. That's experience. And it is exactly the same thing as the strain experience. The mystical Christian. To achieves union with God was him.

All the other language that's associated with that. And there's the most brilliant exposition of this that I've ever seen is Bernadette Roberts. A catholic then had this experience left the trace raised to apparently and then later went on. Like something like eighteen to twenty years later to have the no self experience. The the dissolution of any had sense himself. And in her book, she writes that she says says, I feel like the most important thing I have to teach people is that the loss of attachments could he or she doesn't put it in I say loss of attachments being.

She says the dissolution out here, but it's the same thing. If you read it, understand it. She says that this dissolution of The ego is not the end of the path, which is what everybody thinks the dissolution of the ego is the beginning that. And that's exactly what the build for. It a stream entry. It's the beginning of the time. The stream, the stream will carry you forward. Once you've entered the stream, that's like, stepping into a powerful river. You know, you're you're you're going to be carrying okay.

It goes only one direction. That's which way you're gonna to go. Bernadette debt? Roberts. Yeah. She go ahead wrote above. How old. The path to no self. When she describing. Her experience from ego through to the experience of no cell. And she wrote a second book about the experience for upsell. Let's wrote a third book, what is self where she tries to analyze? What took place in her herself that correspond to these changes? Is she in contemporary? She's still alive right now. She does retreat in California.

He's very old. That. Yeah. Anything he's person very very interesting. We return. So in the sense, I would say, no. I'm not I I I Occasionally familiar with Bernie. And I don't know out of a person i'm shared their is one know who would be and I haven't taken the time to study that from who I might learn about the mystical experience and in Islam and Long. But what I would expect is justice and the Christian tradition in Lung tradition it is it is the change and the relationship with Ego, that is going to be marked as the key mystical experience.

I fully expect they will find out universally. But it's still it sounds like you're contradicted myself, but I don't think I have. It's still arbitrary. It mean... I mean, people could have chosen different things as marketers. But I think they all agreed on this one. You know, could be a all agree on something that's arbitrary with it really makes sense that it works. Be. And after distractions. You'd like to stretch a he two, then that sit together total bell.

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