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Stronghold Retreat 7 July 2011


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Oh, well. You're here. Okay. So we still have a you discussion topics hanging of here there. Want to do that. I can't remember two off. One is, what's all this dedication? I know, what's all this devotion to do and stuff about? Other on this. What's the difference between creating and great. And maybe others too I don't. Got. Those the two they came go right. I yeah. The the second question was was mine, and it was it was actually the distinction between desire and can begin to clinging and then craving i think cert.

Well let me... Let me just to explain that the... When we use the word craving. It has both a positive and negative aspect. So we can in place the printing we can say desire version. They are... The they're craving for something to be and that great for something not to be. K? So so to desire something is to create something So those those are basically the same. The word that is translated into English as clinging or attachment. Is and finally put the down. And it does mean to grasp onto And, for example, if you were formulating a sentence and Poly, you might use Polka data to refer to the act of dress on holding something.

And so that's why it's translated. To press clinging and attachment. But to understand the meeting of way that it was used by the video and in Sutra. It's... It's... I think obviously, not referring literally to, you know, grasping onto something to physically. Although grasping on something physically could be could be associated with it. Yes, referred to grasping onto appearances as being rear. K. So when it's actually used, The dynamic of what's going on, what you're grasping to, the appearances you're grasping to as being real, let's say that you find something attractive and pleasurable.

And therefore they're there he is desire for it. The desire leads to Lu madonna. Just kinda grasping and cleaning attachment. What that literally means is you're grasping onto to, the appearances you're grasping on two being real part that? You really exist as the separate self that you think you are. That the object that you are grasping to he believe it really exists from its own side and its own right. And the third thing that you're grasping to is that that. Thing, which is separate from you is what's responsible for the pleasure that he want.

But that's what grasping means. Yeah. Dressing it's the same thing if something is causing you pain. And that leads to the aversion to the pain and the version leads to grasping form. Grasping to the appearance of you as a self new suffering as real. This thing that you see positive suffering has real. And that it's caused a suffering and if you can get rid of it, besides your suffering will go away. That's what ras. That's what Ras is referring to attachment. So, I mean, you can grasp to just by the the appearance of the human being a separate herself.

And you kinda grasp to the appearance that was the entire world that being somehow real the way it appears to you be. And you can grasp to the idea that your pleasure is the result of your interactions with external things. That you're suffering is likewise the result of your interaction with. Thanks. And so... Okay. So there is the idea that that to be have end avoid pain you need to you to doing the world. So these are all these are all draft banks. These are all attachments. These are all thinking.

Does that make sense in terms of how you encountered the word? Yes. May I kind of reframe it and and see if that makes sense to. I'm what I thought about it is that, but it's like desire. Is desires cons of, like, thoughts that spontaneously is the arise in your head. I wanna hide and dog ice screen. Okay. Right this pops into your head. And if you invest that, as you said with if that thought becomes real to you in a sense that is clinging that's how I've always distinguished it in my head. Does that does that make sense to you?

Okay. Yeah. And what what clinging leads to what what grass power it leads to? The next step in the sequence is becoming Okay. And that's when the intention comes in your mind to do or say something. In order to have this the human. Thought that it that it leads to being. Is that kind the same It idea I just being except that here's that. Being is not as accurate the translation has become okay. Because it's a it's a continuous process of becoming that's driven by this cycle. Craving and attachment and becoming are all three parts of the chain or dependent origin.

And so... If yeah. When they're when there is contact between a sense organ and sense object and it comes to the consciousness as a result. That's the first step. Total contact. So in the past two beat H and ice cream, and it made you feel good. Now left in print and your nearby. So they're now at a completely different time. The fallout of h and ice cream and the recollection of the associated pleasure. Arises. So that thought is a sense object. Your mind is the sense part and you become conscious of that.

So contacts the first step. The second thing that happens is the arising of the feeling of pleasant and unpleasant or neutral And in this case, because the thought of h associated with the recollection that it was pleasurable before the thought of having harvey dioxide ice cream itself is is pleasurable in the moment. And that leads to trading. Trading is the desire to have poly dioxide ice cream. The other the next stage is Madonna. Another word does if you use this when you're thinking about, it will really help to understand the real reunification to make real.

So the next step after p, you this craving to have the pleasure that you remember that you associated with the h dog ice cream. Right? So now the next step after once the craving is there, the next topic it comes to rei verification, that that your mind takes as the object of his consciousness, this self body and somewhere out there some h doc ice cream And the pleasure that you're going to derive once you get hold on. That's the rev reunification of those as I'm unreal and wherever it is it's real.

And the and and it is gonna be the cause my pleasure. So that's the rei of of the appearances. And that leads to the becoming. So you decide to Okay. I know where to get some holding that ice cream. I'm gonna go do that. Mh. And so now you become a person. In pursuit how the gratification for the trade. Right? Then you'll arrive wherever the Then you become... You see the whole cycle just keeps repeating repeating repeating each new duration. So so Now it's no longer the thought of f investors or some real hug dust.

And it's just... And the cycle just keeps going. So you just keep becoming And of course, Isn't the only thing that can lead me to talking dust Isp cream my desire, dis vendors to can be acted on or you know, rationally and then, okay. I can some right now. That's right. Okay. You could have completely neutral attitude towards talking johnson and say, oh, this body is starting to start. Yes. Yeah. I was... When you were talking, I was thinking about... I've been noticing this when I do that that They like, that's lunch and then there's just holding, you know, like see about start of water you know.

And I know ethan. I don't know exactly doesn't seem all thoughts since things worry involved just this kind of impossible know. I'm not sure how that fits for the... Yeah. We talking that... Well, they... The craving is an impulse. What we call creating is an. Drives. We had... Yeah. You say Crave Equals desire. Right? Yes. Okay. Well. And trading somewhere general care? Okay. Yeah. So it includes desires and versions both. But if you're only hanging up the positive things that he want. Right. Well, I was asking because going back...

I'm sorry Okay. But thought me clarify going back to when I was... The model that I gave for how it works in the brain if it's just like I thought that pops up. That wouldn't be an impulse. I would think it would be the acting line that would be the the automatic verification will be the impulse. Well, it's the the impulse the craving is is what happens in the gap between the association with pleasure and the reunification. You see. Okay. Where is useful to the a non turner or a buddha. No longer experience desire for things of the realm my probably not asking.

So but non return and food is both experience plaza. So Abu buddha would be cognizant of the wasn't has associated with hog dog ice cream, but buddha would not experience the impulse be on Automatic. Okay. Right. So then... Also sorry. And also, neither a non turner or nor buddha would experience impulse to have the ice cream. The dog return on the other hand. Bytes still undergo a process of reunification. Yeah. Because although a non return nose, the emptiness are all thing. He doesn't... He he he doesn't always continuously experience.

That exactly. So that would be a difference. Okay. The desire never arises for, but for example, you know, central told I right. But I would never feel... Would never write then but don't never this is where a cost confusion come. Comes With experience the the comp at arising of that comp, the desire to have. But then how does the eat? Do you know? What I mean how. I said look because that doesn't waste away or doesn't do nothing, You know, they sleep on there because the buddha feels hunger. And Buddha can respond to hundred buddha can feel first in respond kids if there's a buddha can see.

A problem in Front and respond to that problem by taking action to correct it. But in none of these situations, is it the result of an inner comp that arises how to this mechanism that we happen. Took the... So of following it that the buddha would never be like a painter. And mean you wouldn't have hot, If A buddha painted a picture, it would be to It would be for the sake of specific purpose. That to satisfy himself in his own and desired. The buddha composed poetry that Dha pad consists hello composed by the.

But he didn't compose poetry out of self gratification to make him feel good because he had a desire to experience a good feeling in the accounts from saying. That's look nice point. He did it because Poetry was a media for communicating the truth that he wanted to to communicate to other people. And poetry. Offers certain capabilities that ordinary produce language test. And poetry also can't capture the attention and imagination of cheaper in raised an ordinary things can't. So there's a used poetry.

Enjoy if if he if the... He wouldn't bother trying to pay a picture Unless he have some skill talent. But if he had the skill on talent and he saw that it could sort a useful purpose that's why wouldn't paint a picture. When he was painting that picture, he absolutely the very best picture he could. Know. There's a lot of yes about dud. And there's there all also are some people around nowadays who regard themselves. Yes. Busters adapted it is. Cool. And it can be it can be amusing at time. One of the myths that buddha is that...

I mean, just to give you an example, of some of the outrageous. Yes. That days. Is that A buddha that when somebody becomes a non return or buddha, they have to become ordained in twenty four hours or up dying. Because the idea that they can't function in the world, which is it's really total nonsense, but that's actually a very popular widespread. There's a lot of beliefs that take that head characteristics that are part of being and buddha. And they make them into something different. So there is in the...

Amongst the buddha myth busters is guiding named Daniel. And he he takes some of these myths and he describes something as the as the emotionally tripled buddha. Buddha aren't incapable of dealing is dealing that doing this And he's taking... The the the things that he's saying are things that in one form and other different people in different places haven't come to associate with what it needs to be here. I'll do that. And their misunderstandings because Buddha is not an emotionally ema being who's no longer able to feel certain kind of things and do some couple things if anything is capable going far more.

But he has changed in a very fundamental way. So part of this is Saying, well, A buddha could never have sex. And, of course, you can see why somebody in my conclusion and what. It free of all society already. Sex design then. Right. Obviously, buddha would be totally incapable having exactly. But A buddha, body and mind function as normally a say every day. You may already realize this, But what the reason that The reason that you experienced sexual attraction is because there's parts of your brain, which translates as parts of your mind that a program the respond in particular way.

So when certain kind of stimulus comes along, your bank response. And how does the respond by producing a pleasurable pleasurable role result again? Tell effect. There essentially no reason why He. Remember buddhist can experience pleasure in pain. There's no reason why account experience the pleasure associated with sec. And there's no reason to like the buddhist brain and body he wouldn't be capable of the the the the physiology of the body pretty produced appropriate is physiological response.

But the difference is Ib buddha is not going to engage in sex how works? Ib buddha is not going to... It's ability is going to be essentially from his own side indifferent to whether or not be ever sex. But he's as capable as having sex as anyone else if he perceives there to be a really good reason to. Starts scott. Hey my very well. Probably. So so when you're thinking about desire, you have to separate the compulsive aspect the pause. From but pleasure that pre proceeds it or the pain that receives it.

And the behaviors that follow from it because the pleasure obtained will still be there buddha our latin bank is still capable of all of the actions. It's just that the link there, the link it's broken. And and the twelve links of depending origin. The length that broken when you become white and right is the link of craving i interrupted that's someone who's front. So it just means that this the longer is automatically connected to that. There's now gap. But this is still possible. And that's still possible.

It's just that this is going to be arrived out by a different way down the length that's now no longer there. Mh. That's that's the essence setting. Right. There. The pin the condition part? What's that the conditioned part? The conditioned. Well, the the the link? The link is is creating. And creating is it is condition, and is also n a. Okay. Okay. But it comes from the belief that my happiness is the result of certain things that happen to me or that I get or that I do. Right? Mh. And long before someone becomes a buddha.

They discovered it fact. They had doesn't depend all those things at all. And that's that's the link thing. Think it's. Okay. So I was thinking it's kind of like, the bit of my I would imagine it would be so kind been impossible to say right in paula or eat or something. I don't know. How would the buddha of what would comfortable do be like, oh, pound time. It wasn't... I mean, they're not sure how the... Right. Well, the food game right farms. Right. Right. I'm not sure how the... Process to initiated if there's not some initial inputs, you know Well there's any process can initiate convenient also that comes from loving kindness and their passion.

No, it's a different kind of. Right. Could do be the impossible just enjoying poems. I mean, language is amazing if you're really integrating. Don't would might have that impulse. But my impression is that would wouldn't... First this buddha my think about the hug dust. But then if for some reason, it was better not to have h us or not have sex or not to whatever. But then it wouldn't be painful. It wouldn't be able to anything it just Yeah. It would be absolutely no hesitation. Yeah. That's right.

You know, i just The buddha would accept Talking das, You time. When you why not? And not only that he's gonna enjoy the hog us far more than you. To the degree to issue crave it and and and grasp it is going to diminish you're enjoying another because as soon as you start to eat it, some part of your mind realizes that there's only so much, it's not gonna run mean i can't be fully there with it. No better can be fully there with it. So, you know, to be good. But if there's any reason at all, For the buddha not to take the heart enough.

It's not gonna blow into in the slightest. It's because it's gonna be on another because. Know, no how good does. Mh. You know, on the other side the point exactly but the same. Dude just got store, but, you know, he's gonna experience the pain. And He's going to be quite capable of rebooting this art. And if there some good reason not to. Well, then he would I don't know if it's reason in the sense of like I think that word recent saw that. That you're talking about. Because I rich. The word reason because the word facing just.

This really academic this really, like intellectual kind of mad emotional. And I don't think that's really what it means in the sentence but it certain has all these implications that I think that way because of some of those that emotional of technology. Emotions motivate to two things. Mh. And emotions are kind of, like, you know, they're they're like instincts. They're these automatic drives that come up vicious one direction. But Mh. And unfortunately, they can often be totally divorced from the kitchen and situation in which they our amazing.

Not being appropriate. So to not be compulsive driven by your emotions, it's a great blessing. Because I do have them. But. Here in English, we call a lot of different things oceans. So we would call well known motion. But love is really different than fear, right It was really different than loss. Mh. It's really different than Hatred. As an emotion. It has a really different quality to it a lot compassion. These figures Of buddha is motivated by compassion. A characteristics of resistant transaction.

And with the combination of wisdom and compassion, you don't need fear anger loss terrain go. Compassion is love. Sympathetic joy. you know, there's a four line of those. The first is loving kindness. If you have what kindness, you have motivation to have you have motivation to stay alive they motivation to do and say all kinds of things out of loving kind. White likewise compassion that's a secondary riding boat if you have compassionate, it it gives you all kinds of motivation and slightly different time to administration.

The third designer mode is sympathetic joy or or finding happiness in the majority satisfaction and others. And if you'd have that, that provides further motivation. These three are account with forty design boat, which is. Which means that you have these wonderful motivations, but you're totally una attempts to the outcome of why you do. Haven't like not being attached to the outcome means. You don't have suffering, You don't. You don't suffer if you... If there's a good reason that take to hiding enough.

And you don't suffer if there's a good reason about to pull the there. Mh I was curious about what would motivated have devoted them to avoid danger. And I was thinking a lot of situation where I was riding my bike on time in filled philadelphia and... I didn't realize it was little freezing, and I thought this was public It was ice and I wiped out at it. Yeah. And it was on the... Luckily, it was pink semi in the other lane, but luckily it was in the other lane. It was, like, on the street. And But when I Am actually was being mindful.

I was practicing... I think I went even been go home augmentation, and I No. I it's looking work, but I jumped up and I pulled that bike right over the side, like, instantly. You know what I mean? After the same life get to get out of the street. And how how would call that because I don't know if it felt like fear but there definitely wasn't thought. I mean, I knew it I noticed that semi Was little lane though. It was... But there wasn't The stop like, oh my god. This is Dangerous. There was the action you know.

Of getting out of the way. And I think in some ways the actually comes before thought that covers a lot of times. Hasn't medical. And the actual motivates rates is that, like, the crazy board rate mode. I don't target that all your conscious thoughts are mostly just rationalization about what was already happening. Yeah. Yeah. I and it's felt makes crazy with that. Like, heck get that thing. It's the impossible creates. But oh date. But but I don't know what does the buddha what happens when the buddha is writing it's bacon.

It's white so It it's just something in the other lady. Exactly. The same thing. Because he's seemed the buddha. The buddha brain and the Buddha mind, it still functions just as well as as yours stars. And so the buddha is blind. The the buddha may not think of any of this consciously any more than you do, but it doesn't matter. Knowing, knowing that not getting out of the stream, is dangerous. Mh. Right. And knowing that it makes sense to get out as soon as possible. That that leads to the action of getting out of the street as soon as possible.

Could you think about I'll burn attitude towards his own body and his online. He knows he is not his body. And he knows he is not his mine. And he knows he's not your body and he knows he's not your mind. So he has exactly the same compassion, Kindness after anybody towards His body as he does K. If he saw, you in the middle of the street and danger, he told you about if he finds himself in the middle of his escape in danger lose his body from the. And know would happened just quickly. I mean i automatic happened to dirty.

Thoughts. Oh yeah. But... Okay it's like Pandora is fox, you know, we're out. Get back to me. K. So having left behind a catholicism about thirty years ago. And having learned a lot of rituals and devotion in that religion and The question comes to mind What? What does one miss? When one undertake a program of purely mindfulness meditation that is not associated with Buddhism per s. Well, what this is out on the possibility of the enlightenment they talking about. If you practice mindfulness, it will make changes in your personality and your conditioned responses and reactions to think.

It will thank you. It would like you a better person. It will make you a happier person. It'll make you easier to get along with. It'll have all kinds of positive effect. But enlightenment mindfulness meditation all. It requires it requires morality as a foundation. You won't even be able to proceed in your meditation practice, you'll reach a certain point and your practice won't go any further. And unless you have been practicing morality in the sense of practicing mindfulness and your wife and such a way that you refrain from doing things that are harmful to have being.

Which means that you're refrain from acting out of your own desire and a version. You're you're moderating you're constantly moderating desire and aversion by saying, is this something that's hard to somebody else, which which if if that was your thought, you might have trouble figuring out what's the to. But instead, you have the pre and the perfection to fall. So... Okay. Am I saying something? That's wrong speech. Am by doing something that's causing physical not. You know, so these think you guidelines But what system what they're doing is you're training yourself to moderate the actions that flow desire and diversion and the division himself.

And if you do this, it has a effect on your right. When you reach a certain stage and meditation, they're not going to be able to go any further. If your mind is cluttered out, there's a lot of guilt and remorse and worry about the consequences of things you've done and worry about the facts that chatting about the people. So you have to pure higher my first why living and I appreciate rate. Oh, okay. Like changing the way you live. Okay. That's in order to in order to succeed in your meditation and beyond a certain point.

But then the other aspect of it is wisdom on the the insights that you are seeking has on the past. Like they're all they're trying to view all of the time. But you don't know want to look for. Do you know we're look at. And so the pan as these three parts and meditation is only what, morality and wisdom right view and right understanding are equally essential. To achieve by manner. If you practice morality alone, you'll become a very good person and you'll probably be greatly admired, respected, receive a lot of support from people around you.

Do you go lot? If you practice meditation parole, you can undo a lot of your negative task conditioning. And you can find your way to being a much better person. Because you don't kinda like. And if you do nothing, but study wisdom of text. You'll they'll a lot of stuff. I okay spell it on like. As you open the plan. So all three you're necessary. And so and so that that brings me around two. So what is the place of devotion in that in that try in in those... The lungs in the category meditation.

If devotion is of meditation. Devotion brings about surrender. So if you do devotion properly, if you do devotion properly, you're just you're... The you're surrendering or surrendering yourself to something higher than yourself? Have, you know, it's it's called the buck path. And it's in it. In the in the yoga tradition, they divide meditations a of different times. And b is a kind of meditation and devotion is a kind of meditation. Christian religious devotion is a kind of the meditation and hindu religious ocean and any any kind of devotion It is a particular way of training your mind.

That produces a particular kind of result. And can under do the right circumstances produce the effect you're looking for. I I think I have one more. So it seems to me that one... Okay. So so if if devotion is surrendering yourself to something higher than yourself. Then one could feel devoted to to all the great teachers because they're were great teachers. Yeah. Without ever having had a personal relationship with you most of them. So so one can be devoted to one's own teacher. Because probably because one has a personal relationship with that person I assume.

And and that contact with the loving and kindness and the wisdom that's imparted by by a teacher. Inspires devotion. But there's also a kind of devotion which is for the Dal lam and for other great teachers and for the buddha. Well there's a kind of devotion that is not a spiritual practice. And that's a very good thing too. Is that what you mean? I need just ask... So you're between types of devotion. Yeah. I i they they're state. There is devotion in the form of generation mh appreciation, admiration respect.

Okay. Those are not the devotion that is a a yoga. They're not they're. You see? The purpose of a devotion as a practice is to lead you to surrender yourself to give up yourself to with language yourself. That's where it's leading to. Okay. You know, to be devoted to teachers in general to be devoted to one teacher. That can move you in that direction, but it's not the. It's like that's not the behind of... You're using the breath to make your mind calm and clear. But there's nothing special about the breath...

What's what's important is making your mind comment fair. So that as you continue to practice, you can have an experience of no self you didn't see through the illusion of self. That's the kind of yoga the meditation is. Devotion is a kind of yoga that you practice surrendering your ego attachment. In all kinds of ways to someone or something and you practice it over and over again. And it's like making your mind calm and clear. But the whole purpose of practicing surrendering this ego attachment is getting to the point where you're so good it's surrendering that you can't surrender yourself in the hope that's sense.

Yourself good sir. That's it. You're so good at surrendering wow. But it's not enough even to be credits at surrendering. You're still trying to have to know how to surrender yourself. When you know how to do it. Then it seems like there's the the distinction to be made between what you're is up two. For you know, surrendering is up to a nazi party or something it's not a good. So there's still is this distinction that's made, you know, you might decide that some Teacher isn't really a good teacher in their part, you're gonna leave that hash or something or This seems like the still had things to be made.

Well, yeah. Shape. As a matter if if you can truly surrender yourself even to the mo party. You will exceed succeeded in your spiritual request. It seems like it would be pretty hard to reach that point concerning yourself in that in that sense work. Surrendering as you're during your own sense of or relative of judgment and everything else. To the Nazi part year anybody else can be very through. And this is the problem with the path devotion. It takes a special kind of person to succeed it. And on it takes a special kind of object of devotion not to be abused.

And it's very subject to abuse. You know. So It's true that you can you can practice Guru yoga, which is practicing devotion to your teacher. In order to... you know, as a meditation or cultivate this ability to surrender. But if you're if your teachers are really bad person, it's a human counterpart laboratory a nazi party, you could be terribly exploited and all kinds of horrible things could happen which you contribute to through your your devotion. It's quite possible. Right. So you saw there's some but required Yeah.

Yeah. So so the path on promotion, does that mean that there are a there other paths that the path of devotion is not is not essential to the process of enlightenment No. But the the path that ocean is just... Is just one pound concentration in mindfulness is not essential to enlightenment there. But of all of the different paths, If you make a study turn my whole life has been steady. Of all of the different paths that you're out there. The buddhist have is the most systematic path of concentration and mindfulness nursing.

But I know and it is the one that is most consistently over and over again the fact. And but it's by no means not dealing there. First of all, there are other paths that have all the concentration at my points. And there are other paths that don't involve that at all involved completely different trenches. Because there's many other paths. But Most of them are more more and less specific west systematic. I was thinking about... You're were talking about morality if the need to like It's interesting because I think that be connected with my unless become aware of how you affect other people.

But that wasn't really my question. My question was about You're excited about Guilt remorse, and I think you have those feelings even if you do practice morality, there what. Even if you do practice this morality, you still have feelings of rewards and guilt because two reasons when you mess up sometimes. And two being, sometimes these situations where you cut suffering And it's inevitable. You might do the right thing. I can say to go to school and then my sister is me something now because I've.

Or what happened to is is I moved out west, and i I felt bad because i left the nephew everywhere behind it wasn't a little bit of in a difficult situation let but kind of bad for even though the whole decision might have been I get the decision. So it's complicated. So i of how one Well, there are things like guilty more. There are other things involved. You know, you can have no matter how how ethical and world you are from to date on. Your pest reality has to be dealt in a different way. And if you have dealt it.

It's it's still there gonna be a a cause worrying remorse. But even it's totally totally laurel, you can still kinda separate. For instance, going to school, like you totally me moral decision with them little sister feels terrible about. And you can still feel bad because of that. I mean they're not quite sure what Maybe it's a different meaning all different feeling? The other they're part of it. You know, remember wisdom has part of it too. Mh. Well. You see... Actually, this is a very good example.

There's a part of the meditation process that is called purification that. You have all of your old crap come on medication? And you look at it and you accept it and you become free of it. Mh. I guess to pass that. But morality gives real out morality pure. What you are doing your best? And it doesn't mean me. It it doesn't, you know, if you condemned yourself for stepping on an app. Yeah. It shows lack of listening. Mh. Mh. But if you're and and morality is in practice right now, morality is not being successful and keeping I said stop shelf from thou don.

Mh. Or elephant is a practice you take pre you you you try your best in every situation to to apply that preset. You know, and you sometimes you succeed more than you do at all least. And as time goes volume as you keep prompt the same, pretty. You're going to get much better at it. Right? But it's a attractive. But if from this day forward, you are practicing morality to the best of your ability. And getting better at it day by day, you're going to have hugely less causes of word remorse Mh. And otherwise, and that's the point.

You can still generate worrying remorse. Turned out good reason. That's where you need wisdom them and understanding. Mh. And sometimes you'll generate worry worse because you've got some deep programming you were trained in a pretty particular way as a trial or treated in particular right? So as a result, you feel and Kind of right, that is really inappropriate. And things that are not in your control, you gonna you still feel bad about. So that's that's a purification that has to come confirm a meditation.

So, yeah. You're absolutely you're right. It's not. It's not that any one of these by itself takes care of these things. Alright But you can see and I think there is a very direct connection between where and morris have your asset or moral behavior. Yeah. Yeah. And that... That's the point. It's not it's not... I'm not trying to suggest that it's a total answer even to that one pretty particular good aspect of thing. Mh because their guys there is a total answer in all three parts of the guy. Which is a good thing.

Otherwise, if if when working together all three parts of the path, could Then it would be a schwab path that would only work for some people to not run. Mh. But i most as kind of like I mean, it's not really possible to never cause anybody else suffering, You know, it's seems absolutely not. Because even the buddha, like, possibly somebody felt madly love with the good I wanted to see this the buddha like, sorry. Free. And that is one of the things that the buddha himself learned before his enlightenment.

A religious movement to still exist today. Called the James, and it was very big at the time of buddha. And there's a lot of evidence that he studied with a jane teacher. Mh. The Jane, it was it was based on the existing car out that here. But every action you performs somehow how magically you determines what happened see it in the future. And so the goal from this particular point of view, the goal of the wife was to make no bad karma at all and to to exhaust all of your past and turn. So the james had a special apparatus that security with him so that when they took water from the river, they can filter it so that they wouldn't accidentally swallow a microscopic god you kill it.

And wherever they walked everything they did there were masks on their face so they would breathe them an insect kill it. And in this tradition in the philosophy of this tradition, it comes to be recognized that it's impossible to live without causing harm to other things. So from that misguided view of what car is, what it means is it's impossible we without continuously making that art. And so what the most developed james of that time did, I hopefully none of them do it anymore. But in that day, there accounts are the most developed chains when they realized that the only way that they could achieve the goal of their tradition was to sit down in one spot, dot eight not drink.

Totally die. And but that is the logical how. Yeah. No. You cannot live in the world without doing things. But, you know, there's there are a lot of differences that Oh yeah. And you know, you... Yeah the point is you don't intentionally. Do something their assurance people. Yeah. You don't do it lately. That's right. So you'd have to recognize that it is the nature of the world. I mean, the fundamental nature of biology is that is that life on life. And you know, like weird it's says we're enter there at the top of the food chain.

And even if we say we're gonna eat nothing but rice and knuckles. There every every of lentils are cup rice plus the life of thousands of insects and animals of all times. They have a avocados destroyed or one way another run over by the detector. The i and get ordered to get or not send your race to table, you can't live with that possible. Expect. But you can do your best not to intentionally cost. And also there's a kind, The important thing here is that there's a difference between pain and suffering.

Suffering in in the sense that suffering is the minds reaction to what happened. Everyone's is the cause of their. And so, you know, if if someone wants to be with you and you say no, it's not you saying no causing. Situations that are similar allergic that. You can't take responsibility for other people suffering in cases like that. K. I I one thing I forgot changing subjects Just changed back to here. There's a path there's a particular pathway of devotion or variation of the pathway or sometimes disregard.

It's actually regarded as a separate half yoga. But it does the same thing. Ba is the catholic login and devotion. Sad is the path of service, It's another way of dev yourself, so totally that you get beyond or yourself. Half sorry. I see the similarly train it two. And the reason I I wanted mention that to you is just that by looking at both of them side by side, it helps you on stand both up them how we work. Mh. And know, path service is to give of yourself as fully as you can. You know, and the ultimate getting it yourself is to achieve the state of no south.

There must the other practices for surrender? There are There are a lot of variations on. All of these practices. You know? And if you look at... I I think if you look at any cultural tradition, you're going to find to some degree or another in some form or other almost any out all of these practices. In the very individualistic west we sometimes look at eastern cultures Japanese culture where people just automatically see themselves as sub to their society, their culture. It's inc conceivable to rest her stuff if you're if you're an engineer that made a mistake and disaster happened that you would feel that you you you would feel like you needed to kill yourself.

Or strange idea, but not not in a culture where you see yourself as a part of a whole then. That even has elements of this surrender service of being less self attacks and be in the restaurant. So you'll find variations of it's where these look. Let's supposed to are hundred thousand cost demonstrations, so forth those for those practices of devotion. Well, it it depends on the person doing. It couldn't be the practice of read. Oh, this is this is the good things that come to me from doing this.

Okay. It all depends on what's going on in mind. But practices like to have doing frustrations and prayers and things like that. They definitely have that as quite important element. I mean, frustration. It's That's what you do when you you when you see somebody else being, you know, powerful authority, wonderful design, whatever whatever frustrate yourself further. So the essence of pros yourself is that kind surrendering to something more powerful when you spine. What they showing some of these tibetan movies of people at frustrate for miles.

And just they just keep going I must have some feeling that this is value to them. The last. And and maybe turning the prayer wheels and doing the mantra doing prayer beads, in oh. Am I suppose in the Catholic church. Yep doing the rosa The hail mary's and and all of these things. Are those emotional practices. Those are all they're all devotion factors scale. But only if they're done emotionally because there are people who turn wheels because somebody else might be watching a notice that they're doctor therapy me.

Oh, oh, well, i I I I understand. People that say why get the carrier on ball and say it all the time because they look holy. Yeah. I understand all that. But but I'm for us, west for us here. What what would be emotional practices. Besides serving helping with whatever you can help. Making people happy. Are there certain practices that you would do day that would would need to your surrendered. Well, if you wanted to do devotion practices the best think to view would be they go to a hey Christian or hindu or, you know, to sell to one of those teachers that are you know, that it involved with a religion that includes a big emotional.

Well, that's not what I want. I was thinking it must be you know, how you how you get to the surrender of cell. Mh. Well, there are for example, and buddhism there are devotion devotion forms of buddhism and like, pure land and there are forms of buddhism and where you spend hours every day and devotion practices dedicated to the lotus su. Repeat the name willow sutra over and over again for several hours every day. That's a devotion practice. Is very much because of the mind and hard of the people are doing that practice, Regard the lotus sutra itself has the body that pope.

Probably obviously, ultimate. Nature. And so that's what their that's when their package thing they're devotion to. There's an element of devotion every time you bow down to the the buddha on on the alter you could very easily choose to expand that aspect of your practice. In the and within Buddhism and there is the idea of we rebooted nature the universal leader nature. That's wonderful. The of nature that is in all. And part of that practice is see the good nature and everything every everyone.

I had personally you see you see the be nature. I'm trying do that Yeah. Well, that's a that's a notion practice. So last one is yes for mean. You don't have a problem only team. There's an aspect of surrender, I think in in just not needing to be right all the time. Absolutely. Yeah. Not having to argue your point. Yes. Yes. Out and least there is for me. No it's real down to earth surrender practice. Agree with you. But there's there's a place for devotion and I think for everyone. You know...

There's there's no reason why you can't practice multiple practices at the same time as matter a fact, probably good referring you find it form devotion, like see like devotion to buddha nature, which means that really devoted to the buddha nature that you you make the effort to see what be the nature everywhere. You know what's scare? And everything. It's an every object in the garbage and it's in the analog for the trees. It's in every person me. And you can be devoted to that service too. Service can contain many forms of practice scenarios we going to.

It say it's only gonna reinforce the other aspects. Just major krishna the last minute that's never gonna get answered. But I'm curious it's like, what exactly is enlightenment? It just that very everything being wonders is it beyond that dessert. No. Because not it's not an experience. Have anything in particular. Mh okay. There there are experiences on the way to enlightenment and lightning itself. Is becoming three of the illusions that keep you from same things the where they really are. The effect?

How you know when your free of them your. Fact same things as they really are. Is wisdom? And compassion. The wisdom part of it is realizing that the self doesn't exist. And you're not separate. You are one with everything. Experiences of being one with everything. Are part of the path. Mh. K. An experience of being one if everything is and non enlightened experience. Mh. That is much closer to the way things really are, Yeah. The way we ordinarily perceive things. And the more often you have the experience or being one with everything, the deeper will be the understanding and your mind to have.

Separate medicine is an illusion. See. Even a single experience of being one with everything, if it's powerful enough. For forever change the way you regard yourself in relation shipped. Everybody it's gonna make a permanent change and it you could possibly make you a completely right thing. But what happens more commonly is that we have these experiences and they give us a good boost down the road there were not to the end yet. You know had it takes the cumulative effect a number of experiences and a number of kinds that experiences it.

So the sort of basic doctrine, this is really true. Absolutely true It's just that it's not the only tree. A basic document is that you need to see the insight into imp, no cell, and suffering. So that's a result of the number of experience those and each time you have insight enter those saying. Thought let's this way each time you have an experience of those things, each time you have an experience of emptiness. Eastern time experience both imp. Each time you have experienced of no self. Okay.

And suffering is not an experienced of suffering it's an experience of how suffering is related to attachment to these other things. But anytime you have an experience, of something like empty does. It produces the result is with Asana, which me just is to see and three k d i names it it's abdul dual of l and him. And so the scene or knowing is is the the knowing goes in. So when you have experiences of emptiness to knowledge, it produces knowledge, deep with you and it did changes here. So the cumulative effect of experiences are anti and and permanent and those cell and of the the truth of suffering.

Changes you in a particular way. That leads to right... That makes sense to you? Yeah. I guess as much as it can describe of them that well. Experience so. And these experiences are not rare and difficult. They're relatively common in your meditation practice and your mindfulness practice. They'll have more and more time. Mh. Every time you are in a situation and in the world and the realization comes to you that well, this is just all a projection in my mind. I don't really know what's going on in this situation that.

Mh. That's an insight hampton. Board close you would have but last hold the idea that that things really are the way you see that has on here. So when do you have with the insights into these characteristics is very strong. And when it is combined with e and is the non reactivity. To pleasant and unplug it's where your users is you through your practice as a result of insight. Cancer. Because after all, the more you begin to realize that things are imp things are empty. There is no cell. The boy that filters in.

Mh. The more entity you experience whether something misses that otherwise you would react to through desire and integration. So there's a critical point where insight is very strong and is very strong. That's the point at which, you will have you will have that breakthrough to right. You said what is enlightenment... Well enlightenment is when it's awakening. If the inner light bulb comes on On. It's like the awakening, because it's like awakening from a troubling dream. All have the experience having a disturbing dream.

And suddenly you wake up. So I have one other question To i help you all my end It's custom like just drop a whole mountain of suffering just like that. Yes what. Today, there was a feeling Like guess meditating. And I had this feeling like my mind just dropped like, a whole twenty five two pounds of suffering. I don't know if that was really true or not or what it was, but that's kinda phone. Well, have had jump can't weight. Then you should assume that it really is that way. The trick is it's definitely possible to trump and infinite out of suffering.

They think is not picking it up. Yeah. That's that's thinking answer. Okay. Happen to pick it back up again. Because the suffering separating is it's paused why you're online. And so it it can be let go out. So easily... Because it's not really a thing. It's, like a perception of. Yeah. Okay. I've talk to yourself. Go ahead.

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