Stronghold Retreat 2 July 2011
(Would you like to write a short summary of this audio? or create a transcript? We need your help! Please leave a comment below and we’ll get in touch with you. Find out more about volunteering.)
we'll often talk about desire relationship to and enlightenment to i here. That enlightenment entails the extinction of desire. Sometimes I hear people talk about it in a way that distinguishes a desire from from clean they say desire in the clean. But other times, people seem to conflict the two. And and that confuses me. I know if sometimes like for example, in some people imagine, you know, have a test for as a abiding in this celestial state because it has no desire as bodies go out into the world and do things to help others just, you know, automatically of their own evolution.
And they seems strange. So I was wondering if you could just... Give me a how how we have clear understanding of what's actually going on in regard to this? Okay. That's a good topic for us to talk about. And it ranges across a lot of things because desire and version craving, which covers both are they're together with ignorance are the roots of every kind of un on action or intention. This is very another teach And likewise, desire in the sense to create English and clicks desire version code is also time to be the because of all suffering.
So it's also time. Both non return and our parts. Folks started in the fourth stages from Enlightenment men. And are hot... Sorry. I put going too. Blue. So the same thing would be true but is So non return are hot good. Are said to be free of desire. All three are three all designers to do with. Sense. And our hot and boot are additionally free the the desires for existence in non existent then. So forth which it is might say most refined form desire. Right? That all saves. Fairly straightforward.
Next step. That. The words where use have multiple shades of maybe. And some when we started thinking the picture of this page is that Well, desire is a bad thing desire or something that i wanna get rid of. Desires the cause of all of our suffering. To decide the root all our utmost some attachment. Must big bad thing. Need to get rid of desire. That you encounter out yet, But what about? What about the desire to the become enlightenment? About faith desire to be free from saturday right. Have what this is doing it it's showing I guess, or anything else still limitation with language?
Probably said one bubble and staring down. At another level hits. Maybe showing us the vast difference between ultimate reality and relative reality, but we'll just talk about tsunami as aspect phrase. The desire that's banks spoken have is a compulsive desire that arises how it out. The experience is a pleasure and pain the attachment to the sense how being itself. And the the attachment to obtaining pleasure and avoiding thing. And this is something that's it's built into us intrinsically. We can't get to this.
Program to experience certain things is painful how being to bright here home. And the reason that we're programmed to experience those things in those ways. Is because we're also a programmed to pursue mistakes that experience possible. Can't avoid those things that are people. Because as organisms is the the purpose is in innate programming is to ensure that we and reproduce or at least create the highest probability of survival reproduction. That's the wait the system works. You like things that taste sweet because sugar is a valuable nutritional commodity that's available in smoke and head him and scarce quantity in the world and as the kind of organism we are, when you find something that suite is to your benefit to to eat it to accumulate and say it up if you can't share it with your family right whatever.
You know, I'm saying thanks for things sir to for. This is so this desire that we're talking about. It's a a very, very deep rooted. And It's a very un sophisticated program. So anything that you experienced. You know, little desire. So even if for some reason, none of the systems a little bit distorted, so to that causing harm tier body, creates a pressure in your mind, and he will compulsive everybody. Or use use substances or figure kinds like. It's a very un program. But I keep using the word program gets comp that arises automatically and response to pleasure.
Is to pursue or avoid or do whatever you can do to maximize the pleasurable and minimize state. It's just it's just the way we are. And that that is That's the craving that the Dha is talking about. As a matter fact a word the the very word the keeps getting translated is to saw. Creating is turned on, and it meets thirst. And so if you if you take that translation instead of desired, then that's much closer to this deep. And a sort of unavoidable compulsive quality of what we're concerned about.
So it can overlap with something else. That at the same time is very, very different. If you see somebody suffering and you have the wish the desire, if you will. To do something they're suffering. It's not the same thing. Right. So great it's a great different thing. And comp to do things that that bring you pleasure and into avoid things that caused you paint. But we use the same word. So they could have... That just it's a desire to help each other. No I say that they go overwhelmed because that this way we call an manifestation of what.
Right? But there's a really good example of the health landing. Ordinary love. Between and women. It has some components of that. But in Has a huge component of the other kind of desire patient. The the fulfilling of one's own compulsive the... Or satisfaction of various sorts. But you you see how the there is an overlap between the two. At the same time they're very interesting distinctive thing. So there are a lot of things that we could use to turn desire to describe that are not what his pain referring to.
I the were kinda translate as craving. Or have desire and version news. The room of suffering and is the olson action. Right. So since we've since there's a conveniently different terms to just to describe the issue. We just had to understand what the difference to us. And really the most important process of i understanding different is. When you look inside yourself, your own motivation. That's that's the really important aspect of discerning with me. So the desire for lightning right. Well, many people come to the durham Because their life is still the subject.
They one to be for from suffering? Well, which kind of desire is that? Is that? Of course, yes. Yeah. Yes. It be had. Is back me? No No. Absolutely done it. Okay. Well, maybe it's not so sad. And we almost have where anything called Ton was bad. Wasn't. But even pun can. Can't be good at least than the mismatch. The... In terms of the the desire to become at lightning, and the whole Omaha The whole basis of the and the bernie side. Ideal is that you try to trans what is original selfish desire that belongs with the category at time to that higher kind of designer why working on yourself to make during desire for enlightenment.
Be a desire not for your own benefit, but in order to be able to me. So implicit in the entire mah a philosophy a recognition manager. That just different kinds of desire. Or or there's different things that the human propensity to wish forward want something your desire. Has two different things. And and also the idea that the one can be transmitted The. I'm regarding those last one of travel mutations. I know the example that's usually used is the one of, you know, the pursuit of the enlightenment and then we take actually is transmitted.
It's not gonna find other things also. Right? Yeah. Even even unintentionally. There is, a lot of good done in the world for selfish reasons. Unfortunately, faster out more Yeah. And it can be transmitted. Well, we i guess into to another topic. About. Every sense ultimately trans it. May I ask well last question again this a few of time. What it would be... We didn't even touch on. The things we didn't touch on is what's the connection between desired current plea. Attached, but we didn't them touch it all on.
What's the nature of the desire listeners of non returns it's there's lot of other things we did do. But if you have a lot of questions, i I do here. I mean, as a beginner, relatively speaking, I, you know, listen to lots of different people's talks. And as I said before they there does seem to be... Sometimes this absolute language that and when they talk about desire, it does seem you descriptions of what they're talking they're talking about the whole Cabo, you know, except as you if it doesn't pertain to the pursuit of enlightenment usually that we're willing to you know, acknowledge that that's okay and there's certain circumstances.
My only question is would you agree with my assessment of that your assessment is that's some people con in their speech intentionally unintentionally conflict even quite experienced medi and Yes. That happens that happens are not one. Okay. It's has matter fact. It's a it's a thing that you easily pick up for many sources. But my i I just wanted to know if if he agreed that lots of risk, you know, that our teachers and experienced medi tend to tend to talk about any kind of desire whether A un skill as something just wholesale that unless it pertains to getting enlightenment midnight.
I'll point out something to you. That's a really good lead into something that I would like to address. Until, you achieve the third stage of enlightenment they become a non return. You are going to be acting how to decide conversion you're going to experience. Craving or things for etcetera. Until he reached the state, the second stage of the enlightenment being what's called that but once return. Probably most everything that you do is still going to be. Done how to selfish desire or. So it's a totally absurd proposition.
That for somebody who is not yet the stream metric or something who is not yet. At least a once returned. To think that they're gonna be able to to do anything at all. That's not based and society. So put this in no. I'll put this in another way. Until you become a non return. Your entire focus shouldn't be on skill versus un skill desire, not on desire versus have of desire. Because you're wasting your time you're being foolish? But so until you until you have overcome that deep fundamental comp that you were born with, but it was programmed.
That's all you have to work with. Is taking your desires and making them as skill as possible. And and so to definitely recognize that. And it would be, you know It makes it opens up a whole lot more possibilities in terms of how to practice in the world. I think it's unfortunate. There are some people they're buddhist versions of kelvin i they today is particularly for. Become very, very attached to this idea that somehow you gotta they're gonna act in every moment on every day as that they were things free to front desire and and every darn talk they're gonna give was gonna be all about how desired such bad thing and and they make it very black and white.
But I that's that's him nature to do that. But human nature to overs five things. It's human nature two to picks accept these kinds of doc tri abuse without examining very close, by Refer once answered the mah side ideal. Buddy o cheek I guess. Literally bo names to wake weekend and she means mine. So it's a blind vent corner awakening, but in the honor it means the mine that on for the sake of all sentient thing. Okay? So it's the is the ultimate you know compassion. And this risk is this is a v motivation or.
But in the, it's clearly recognized but until straight entry. No one can have that kind of vote. They can make believe and it's good and healthy to make. It's very good. Just so he have that like kind of really. Think try to think as if you have that kind of voted to, but it's impossible to happen. All you have is the imitation matter fact assembly. Having which is really good practically. Okay? Then could street, then you have the seed a approved party. Because of the realization, you know, your number I said, before the second stage like may...
Most the areas and you do. Right. I'll no under all the most are very. Is still writing i decided version. But you have the realization. You'd have the awakening and the seed has been planted. Or the genuine, but chi. There is. There you have change in profound way. Although you still feel like i separate yourself, has although you still act out of desire in a version, and you you know that i an technology. You know that it's a false. Okay time way. You may forget it, ninety percent of the time.
But you know it's true? And anything that happens that gets your attention sufficiently legal go remind you but what you know. That's the scene of Code Bo. Now if you practice Mo, it's not completely just a fact assembly. It's also partly real and you're expanding. To real mess up. You know you're discovering true compassion, that compassion becomes from that seed of understanding that, you are really not sem for itself that you believe you are. And these other beings that you feel compassion for are not?
Separate other beings. So So it it's recognized implicitly in that and explicitly both that. You have to work with the desire that is a part of your name. And working skill with that desire. Allows you to transform that desire. I know you you got Tanya Jeff wants. Yeah. He can't come across. Has mind Desire kind to guy you Google. How or if you go to his website think access insight. Anyway, Google got paper he wrote is called pushing the limits. And then there be... It's one of the most beautiful explanations how you have to use desire skill forty.
It's the only way be whatever come desire. So mood is still have still and their behavior. Preferences that we would like was desire. You know? If you were to walk up up and you had the cards a dish of rock fish in one hand. A nice circling in area had a bowl in the other hand. The blue is gonna choose the device... Unless of course, I mean, if there was some reason for not. It was benefit somebody else then. That would be driven. But else going be in your. No. Is that the same kind of decided with me send it buddha so no longer to subject.
Really. Good. Two of buddha. His owned body deserves as vice respect as everybody else. Us his money. And so he would know her. Himself a then. So in that case, it's not a desire rate rising out of the country complex sleeping need with maximize but. Right. But it's connected to the reason that we have those programs. The reason that most people that be immediately replaced by a bold run fashion. It bad it make this sound turn. And there's other animals that would long that way but just because human arrows it would be harmful to us.
And so we're formed the programming that makes us feel revolt by the smell and there's nothing right back. So just in general sense, the a programming that's a probably. The s. For the benefit, i one start vision. But when that's the only thing to get? All doing things that we've evolved to do and the enabling ways that they evolved the eighth. Look has have consistency. So Then programming is not inherently better. And if we did the recognize of why we do, you know for this, For example. They pretty much have to go on the programs so they would want to their little brains gonna have the capacity and tube you do rush others over that act with the that they warms up.
You said that we've had... Wonderful question. Just we had a wrong of information. I do. That that human beings usually act out over the wrong piece of ignorant some wrong these. Is that piece of information that we're separate? Yes. K so belief that... We are a self that we have self so. It's The most fundamental aspect of this is believing that we are separate self. Can't we believe that. But as it appears to us that right? It's part of the same program. We are programmed we're born and come the world.
Pre predisposed. To the experience to have the experience of being one abiding separate. So... Right. And that's the thing that's not true. But you know, As in terms of the relative reality that we're familiar with. This is the basis of life. The first most primitive in some primary consistent some chemical with a boundary around them separated them from the rest of the seat. And a regarding know, regarding ourselves as the way we do as ourselves. Is actually a natural outcome event. We're programmed to see the world as made of discrete individuals which between are one.
And When do you think about that? As soon as reality, the universe has to divided it up, and to self and how better? Everything else flows out that. You follow me... I mean... When when... When the universe is divided into too a little tiny circle here. That's neat inside that little times start or everything else. And that boundary That boundary becomes a a battle zone. I'm always trying to get what I need and what what's time to pull from me. Have the fundamental logic of it. Doesn't he may included the idea of or morality.
Later you deal. Bye. And and so that's why I talking about the the the first light of how it's part of the same program. And the other parts of the program begin to unravel to the degree that you can unravel, but that basic. Piece of cover. How do you do it? Well, You do like well first of all, three. If you ask me, you do stages. Some people i say you could do once. Conversations. When you examine what this itself you think you are how it manifests internally and their time. The find that first of all is the idea I who you think you are, which has a long list of attributes.
I am assigned. I like this and don't like that. So i'm so fun. So there is this this idea of yourself that has been created by your mind and which for the kinds of being so we are We also project out for the world. And in any cases, what somebody else thinks we are is more important to us. Than what we can't. One to continue conflict for. This is wife. This is the mental construct. You cease to believe that in was first step towards i'm doing the whole name. It corresponds more to last to what in the western psychology call it an go.
Okay. Now there's a sense of the word ego, you know, ego to so on so forth. We're what we're really talking about is a particular manifestation of attachment to that construct that i that we think. But when I'm saying he on here large fundamentals up they they constructed idea of whom we think we are, which is based on our memories, you know, our our story of our. All kinds would I be in our past experiences. And and also what we really involvement and they sent back to us. That's that's what I anybody this idea i am but find if that's one part of the himself.
And and you'll find that another part of it is just a a sense a very fundamental tuition. Separate separate. To inherent sense cell. It's not an idea. It's not a com construct. It's just a sense that i have. That's right. So the first stage had process of freeing ourselves are we this program. Yes. Let go our attachment to. Realizing that the ego is just non for the moment. And when we let go of our attachments to has been real. Then the mind has to you have to have an enable. You cannot sort survive without me the blind has they generate an idea of really water.
But it doesn't have to be the dysfunctional construct there is in most cases So when you cease to be attached to this idea of the ego as being this real thing, that you need to defend all us and a very opportunity. Then email just because becomes something that the does helps you function. And that's the first step. Now are you still have the hand since being himself. You have it haven't which desire version can continue to rise and desire conversion rights over and over weekend. The waste strike just happening.
Yes. First there is contact some object with a sensor and larry consciousness. Okay. That is followed by. And we have experience so unpleasant. Sms ms and nature being like here's rise to you which lesson and we won't be tomorrow would be on clear which time And the other thing where we gets play is actually the next step from the process think. Cleaning happens after daily. But what happens and plugging is you believe that that the reality of human infrastructure yourself, you believe in reality of whatever it is and you project that this cons do this For example, pleasure, but now, you become you start to fill and attention how to add a speech and action, which is all about even getting more holding onto to whatever also makes you people good.
So this this is how the process I told. And it unfolds over than holding over again. Hundreds thousands of times day over and over and over again, which just keeps happening. So and the version training and everything comes after that is being generated a new console and will continue to be as long as there is the ignorance that acts as the gin. Think so. Now when you realized that I not thinking ego go, but I. This is very integrated. Desire emergent still functioning and still most of what you do is going to be motivated by desired integration.
But in terms of the amount of skill pool in a very good there's gonna be a whole lot more skill right integration there. To the degree that you remember what you know, to the degree on any occasion that you forget, that you're not risky not struck. One or two things what happened either where it is the happening the attach this ego. Or you'll start dealing and saying things. Cause hard and suffering for other people in in order to to get something or voice thing. But when you... When you know that this ego is not you are not the or the the mosquito is not a real thing just the construct.
The It means that you can't go very far along you one of those paths. When your suffering gets that enough you realize. Wait minute. This is ridiculous. Why didn't I do it yes? I know better. Or when you see that you're cousin problems you're causing for someone health. Percent the same thing happen. And so This is the first step and the transformation. But to become completely free, desire an version. You need to you needs to eliminate that inherent Since conveying, i separate itself that is present constantly continuous with.
Because as long as that's there, in any un uncharted moment desire in the version. And certainly Intermediate stages between stream entry, the where stage enlightenment and are all about. Knowing that masterpiece. Yeah. Because of the connection in between now, and I mean his stages are laurie way about working with desire in the person working with payton. So Thinking up about an analogy and I don't know if this really make sense or not. But think me about it. You can pick of like, fitness this gravity.
Right? The love of gravity is like a theory. Right? And at one point there wasn't no lot of gravity but things didn't fly up, You know? Everything still fell. Phone discover that the was wrong and there really was some other theory that explained that things aren't gonna fly out. But it sounds like you're almost talking about a state where things do fly up where it actually is Matt just that the theory is that you realize like, oh I'm a there, you know, this idea. About. I myself this the theory.
But it sounds almost like you're talking about the next stage has that? Well, yes. What I'm talking about. It's not that changing the theory is changing what it's happening, But changing the theory will change what's happening in your mind. Yeah. Yeah. But it seems like it seems to go beyond recognizing that the right. That my... It seems to go beyond recognizing that. Ideas that if there is including whatever ideas she might have yourself. It seems like we're you're talking about something that actually goes past that.
Yeah. Well, the the thing that you can analytical recognize that the ego is a construct. That's not gonna for you for much of anything anyway. Mh Because I have to talk about a few other things here. You... The the you that you think you are is your conscious mind, which is only a tiny part. Was on the fiction of the being. Yeah. It's all the tiny fraction think. Most of everything that you experienced doesn't originate and the conscious mind it's delivered to the conscious mind problem. Somewhere everywhere else.
Yeah. It's a two... It's a deep down into russia. That you are this ego that makes you the slave of this ego. Mh. It's the line of programming that says you are I am this ego. Does you really disappear or do did you just get different relationship to? As investigator disappear but you change your relationship to it. Have ego can be become much more help as a result. Like just said, you know, you can't live. Yes. Yeah. And so you you have to have them have an ego and you do have an Ego. It's not about destroying your ego.
Getting rid. But it's about i'm doing... A theory that is causing you all these problems. Yeah. Yeah bad. And I have one other thought that I thinking about way back before the rain and you were about how hard this? He was talking about how hard he is to to get late, and I was thinking, like, two things I had. Well thought might not be as time as it in so that was one butt ahead. But it might not be as hard as we think it is? Well, that's what I'm trying to tell you. Was not sorry you think. The other I had what else of that...
Even if it is higher, this is mean that there's that benefits of. The another... Analogy, like exercise if I'm never gonna tour it doesn't be know. Absolutely really. Yeah. But there's all kinds of benefits are meditating that if know, there's the huge benefits of meditating even if you never become like... Yeah. Right. As a signal that you the discouraging but they but the unfortunately i thing is, you know, the buddha had never talked about it was hard to become light as a matter that he had around helping people kinda lighten right right left, everywhere went.
But what came down to us, unfortunately, the belief has evolved over twenty five hundred years is the is very district on. Mh. And something much so that, you know, even in buddhist countries, there's a common belief, it's impossible for anybody to become. Our lot anymore and stream interests are very rare and things like that. And of course, if that's what you believe that that will create something of them obstacle information. Right in practice center. But I think that the reason that that belief has come about is because the hampton enlightenment of the buddha time has been distorted and and what.
What I see happening is you're being say told... This is the path enlightenment. Was really, really hard and you probably won't make it but maybe in sixty thousand lifetime lifetimes. And that's the truth. Because this isn't what this is is a really distorted inefficient ineffective broken cast to. And if if we can get that part sorted out then lots more people will become enlightened. It's been. It's been made very mystical. A lot of the picture the picture I had of what enlightenment was probably the picture who many people have is this incredible amazing wow we experience No problem sir.
Worse angels comes down from heaven and there's a lightning bolt. Goes through your body and that instant on you are totally different and everybody can tell from not And the thing is, you know, it's like if if you put a check for a million dollars and our dirty handle envelope forward on the ground, people will right around all over place looking for something, it looks like it's worth a million dollars and they won't bother to stop and pick out that envelope. Right. And so give you... And you're looking for something like that to happen.
Well, you can you can be standing there right on the threshold of awakening and never across because, you know, it's like, now I haven't got time for that now. I'm waiting for my angels and the lightning. If I step across threshold, the roof will be over me and the angels can't see, you know, knock I'm going. It's about... I mean, the training is very important powerful too. It can't take you step by step to Thanks again this. It can lead you to understanding. The nature of your own ego, the nature of reality, it can't lead due to having the most important thing that happens as a result of meditation is that you start to help experiences which are experiences about things more the way they really are.
And when you have those experiences? It changes that deep intuitive understanding. They weigh down and the sub subconscious ninety eight percent of your mind. When you have... I mean, you have experiences of the truth of the truth that everything everything that you see is actually just a projection because your buying. You, not not that the world doesn't exist. That's so that's a false. But the world uc see. Mh. Is the world paid in your way? Well, it's, like light real and feel like this much aspect plate.
So you believe you believe what you see and you believe what you feel when you feel like I am this separate being and i've always sw I every number. I've been this one, separate being And gee, I hope I don't. I'd like to go on and being this said day for and in the meantime, I wanna be happy, suffering. And you just keep on doing all whole the same stuff. But dedication allows you to see that it's not like that. That is not a world of things. It's a limitation of your human mind that takes the world and in interpreted as a world of thinks.
Thank to stuff success. Doesn't mean nothing exists. But things don't exist. Things are. Fluctuation that one. And of course the colleagues of things are also creation at your mind. And one of the things that your mind creates is self. And creation is based on the one hand on the your mind has created a who. And on the other half of this inherent airborne and there from the beginning, it's actually part of the fundamental programming of your brain. To experience yourself as a separate yourself. And yes, this sounds answer insurmountable.
But that's the most amazing thing most profound thing about with the buddha discovery is that There there is a way to change that really deep level program. You're saying you have an... You have a false intuition that per your experience. You whole set of false intuitions, but we could we could summarize those that you have you have a false intuition of self as an object and a world of other object. All of which have their own nature and are separate from each other That's the intuition that you get flavors every experience you have.
That's the way intuitions are. Mh. Intuition, to determine about how your conscious line thinks about things and seeing things and feel things and experiences. So you have this false intuition and problem pairs how change the false intuition and replace it with something that is that is more true more functional. The only till you have to work with here's your conscious mind. But the think that you'd have to change, something like that is not accessible to your conscious mind. Interesting problem.
But. When you are conscious of something, then this other ninety eight percent of your mind has access to that. So if you wanna change that deep down intuition, what you need to do just keep repeating the experience. That first keep repeating experiences is that they gain the pulse piece of information. So the more often that you see well, you know, the way I see everything the sister projection of my mind mind, it's empty not really that way. The long times when you that had the more different ways than you can understand that.
And hold that in consciousness. While you hold that in consciousness, it becomes available to the the other parts that do. And it can change that deep down. So the more experiences you have that things are imp, empty that there is no scope that clinging to the idea that things are real of the self is real. All causes of suffering. But more Clearly, you see that consciousness the more it's gonna change this intuitive week. Right. Now That's been really slow. Right. But is a faster rate. That's the way that might take sixty thousand lifetime kind.
Mh has a faster. Right. And that is to train your mind so that you can get to a state where your line stops making up the story that is constantly making the story of the world and the story of yourself. Can't to do that. Actually, your mind doing that by frequently, you know, when you're in deep sleep, I'm sure that that your mind is just certain amount of the time to mind stops doing at. Probably the times during the day it stops up. But the thing is the through meditation get me get to a place where not only does your mind stop doing it.
But there is consciousness. Know what I was saying is that consciousness is a window that allows the this the rest of your mind access to something. And but it has access to that information that it can change. The kinds of integrations that drive to. So this is this is the event that has been completed with the band of angels and the lightning mode. It's just simply a moment when your mind stops. Creating the illusion and you're conscious during that moment. It's like you know, the the example and I see it's very tired You always using the same sample.
But the best notes. Is when To pulled the curtain away you know, and the wizard of oz was exposed after the curtains brought back, was no way to door hate or anybody else ever gonna forget. And so you're never gonna believe why you believe the moment or to somehow this big magical pause there. The same thing happens when your line cease its fabrication. Fabric advocating yourself from fabric the world it cease his dose fabrication for It doesn't have to be very long. It can be for a few seconds.
It could be for ten minutes. Gonna be for fifteen minutes. When it does, so and if you're conscious when it does, they have Way down and here this part of you that believes things were one right. All of a sudden knows Not that way after. There is no wizard behind the curtain just pot billy bone. Mh okay. That's that's what Rem that's the real of that that happened. And they his meditation not only allows you to generate that event. If as a result, if you have done it as a result of a systematic training, you can keep repeating.
And every time you repeat it, more more programming takes place. That more completely changes. You see the the screen intro the other name for the street is the seven times return. Have if you read and understand the sutra, you are not gonna be messing misled living into believing that means that this same individual person, ties and his reborn several time. The booty is rebirth as a a metaphor for the constant process that takes place kind beach injury ourself and our illusion. And so what seven times return or means is that when you have that experience and maybe when you've only repeated it a few times, you're vulnerable to getting caught up forgetting what you know, where to put it another terms.
There's only a certain limited degree of reprogram has had way down here. There's still a whole lot of programming pandemic and so you can get it into that trigger all of that programming. You act and feel and suffered out of that programming. Until something happens to to... As I say to I said, to bring you back to what you know, but another way of looking at that, is that will go on until that part of your plant conscious psyche that has been reprogram through the experience of saying the way things really hard.
Discover what's going on and once again is conscious, if you are consciously suffering, or you are consciously hurting somebody else, that information goes down here, when it goes down here, that part of you knows better can kick can and it sends a message up here that says whoa stop. Don't do this anyway. The seven times return can't be reborn in the sub Of suffering. Repeatedly. But because there's trained after they will always come back out of it again. When you say come back out of it, and mean they consciously come back out of it then remember.
Three will, we put it this way. They'll re away. Yes. What of gap. They fell asleep. They got caught in the dream but don't wake up end. Yeah. I was just thinking of probably I I hope we get not getting up track, but I was thinking about our culture, so the opposite... Cultural training we get and so the episodes like without for and kind stop on time. And then so in a way, this kind of puts you at ads the rest the culture. And personally, sometimes That's kind tricky, you know, because the temptation is to become, like culture like you know, and that doesn't seem really helpful.
But at the same time, it's just It changes the relationship to everything. The medication done. Yeah. And having this different set of understanding... Yeah. It's contrary to the meditation is... Yeah. It it's it's gradually becoming more a part of our culture. Just got a long ways to go. Yeah. And in the meantime. Everybody in this room has had the experience of... So what are you gonna do? Education or? It's kind. Yeah. Yes. I was thinking more of the the look lookout for number one that's way got nathan naval gaze as selfish people and they're trying to have some kind of data.
Don't care what happens in the rest of of world no social responsibility, no political responsibilities as self absorb payload days That's part of too. Terrible but unfortunately yeah. If people don't know much more of that is what looks like. I mean, so you're Don't offer ten things, sit on way not take, you know, i I mean, you you could go somewhere and help somebody. Right? But no. It looks that right. It's easy too mistake. Hey. I'll take it back to you, matthew. Did does that happen at all make it appear more attainable Yeah.
Yeah yeah I guess, I don't know. Sorry. I still had that question. It seem like it didn't quite... I guess my question was is, like, how does one... Personally it's this question of alien from the rest of the culture. Like, pursuing, like, a different gong the sense well. And then it changes the relationship to everything. That's more what having. Of. Feeling or now? This kind of puzzling and change relationship relationship for the whole rest of the culture. Because the whole basis so capitalism seems to be don't...
Yeah we get it all. Be greedy. And then if you chip so. No have. But this little if you have meditation and staying the dark and realizing these things. Is going to put you in a position of seeing things so differently than everybody else does. Mh. That it's gonna be very difficult to difficult to communicate. And it has ramifications and any individuals like when you become serious about the spiritual path, all of your relationships with the people are gonna change a lot of relationships are just kinda disappear mh.
And relationships with people like family that don't just disappear or there's gonna be a definite period of adjustment because your view understanding your priorities, everything under those chain. There is that conflict like. Mh. There's no way around it. Yeah. And I guess I'm trying to work on like that. Connecting with people despite that, you know? And that having been alienate my issues who's where this is where the practice of compassion are cultivating bo can really be helpful. Because compassion is always a workable way.
To relate to other. And so that that will help to keep you from becoming quite so alien. But even in the christian in the in teachings of Christ, i mean got some placing the bible that says, when I let the debt bury the dead, you know, not surprised would what did he mean there and I think he was certainly saying something like, you know, choose in waking like, Mh. Also part of the acceptance of other people like they are or, you know, seems how things. How things really are, and and they don't have to agree with you.
If you get into that state of mind where you don't have to You don't even have to talk about they that. You know they are. Care about. But but your probably your intimate friends are most likely to be other people on the same path which you are by the song. So important. Then it is what it gets. The one thing then I I want to point out to you. I discussed this in terms out association that haven't in the line. Have this described technically yes cessation of mental formation and this also described as cessation cleaning as described as nirvana is to try described as the experience of emptiness is described all all these different ways.
Most ways of describing it in the way that I talked about it that I tend to be in the navy I talked about it turn. So seeing behind the curtain and discovery, that the self you thought who were just an illusion. That by itself. Is only a part of the story as an matter time On the approach to this experience, the the other experiences that lead up to this are going to produce and you a growing conviction that these things are true. And that information is going to be going down to these deeper levels, and they're not gonna like it.
And so that produces what called the dark night of the soul. And that's when when The truth is starting to filter in. But the only thing that is filtering turning in his information having to with loss loss of self loss of the world that I believe was there loss of permanent loss of the the the the possibility of the pursuit of happiness us ever you know, and that's what makes it I'm saying. The the experience to change that makes you a stream isn't just that because you've already done a lot of that.
When you lose yourself, you gain the you gain an understanding that renders this all quite wonderful. And it's not just it's not just a loss. It's not just the investigation. So I I I just wanted to mention them. That's important part... It seems like it's that. I mean maybe would just say Understand you mean more like sure because it's actually a perception of thing. If you're only thinking about yourself, and then suddenly, you think you stop doing that, It's like you actually literally feel around Yeah.
That's right. Yeah. It's like, you know, the analog it's like stepping off of the cliff. And fully expecting to die. Because, you know, you reach the point, this the self that at a deep intuitive level you believe you are and always have them. If you when you take that step, it's being of that. So has so, you know, it is. It's like stepping off a cliff into the no. But what happens though is it's like stepping out a cliff and discovering that you can fly. You there's no way around the fact that before you take this stab.
You don't know that. And before you take the step, it is precisely equivalent to dying. So if you wanna know what it's right? To have the cessation experience and the become wake gets Yes. Why jumping off the cliff delivery lane. Have people off back away. Not yet more work to do. Yeah. Can't quite make I was thinking a analogy light. It's like like, the ego there's the stuff I could be like, this right late. I know that happens sometimes in situations if I get conscious. I don't see the situation because so it's freaking about, you know, getting so conscious.
And it's almost like ego was like, this light that you're like, staring at, you know because then you stop there and it you don't... First a second, everything is kinda all weird and then you see else. That's a good analogy. Yeah. When you stop staring at the widening the light of your delusion? Yeah. I would allowed you to see things something to you're like really. But the the practice that we do is there's some leads to the inside at least association at least to the wait time. On the way, it also generates the characteristics of some generates tranquility and.
And this means that the dark night of the soul is a lot easier to bear. It's kinda because wonderful soothing thing joy tranquility and. And likewise, when it comes to that point o stepping off, gets much much easier to do. Because there is a faith and a confidence. And it's a matter like, faith is. Faith is not something usually talk about. Buddhism is not, but it is. It is one of the very important factors to be to developed. You have to have faith just to go to the trouble of sitting down in practice setting you out have faith fix something gonna come.
But over and over again, and especially at that edge of the cliff moment. The more faith you have easier here it's going to be.