TCMC 2 June 2011 (Part 2)
(Would you like to write a short summary of this audio? or create a transcript? We need your help! Please leave a comment below and we’ll get in touch with you. Find out more about volunteering.)
If if anybody had any thoughts. Contact my to the last few discussions we had on carmen. On anything else? Yes. I I wanna just Thank you so much for the the shift in mind thinking about Karma in charts of The idea of past lives, which I'm know... I'd actually love to talk about that. You know what that about. I'm not sure that I... I mean, I don't know where I expect in terms of the belief of the system or what what I believe But I was so rude by this idea of... I mean, I... The idea that we make our carmen little by middle every day bit that these conditions can occur.
We evolve as human beings in our you know our lifetime. We don't we don't need cost lives necessarily to be thinking our can. Just the idea of it, we can make our future, we can create ourselves, We can and we can do that with behaviors that have consequences in a given day all through the day, of year week or three month years and so on it's It's just a way of thinking about Karma that I am just quite just grateful you for for. Thank you for saying that. Appreciate it. And there's no time. No Well, I I was still chewing the handy way that you stood two things on their heads.
The first b that there is no eye But that not notwithstanding, there's still free will. And I'm still kind of dancing with if there is no unitary eye, there is no fixed self. There is... But there is choice because we can make Ark comma. We can make that we can choose who we are and and if we're radical enough we can abandon everything we've been and that's the end of that karma. Right? There. And that's... That's... you know, going from casa. To free will by way of saying there's self. I i never seen anything like that be.
Well, just to to clarify. I trying to steer clear stream will, but it's free will to an mri. And it does of those some sort of self existent high it is prevented cause. And so it's really not that there is no eye with of history well where is no, no i self, but carries got everybody things are not determined in advance. Things are not restricted. Why causality out and waive that in in the way that we might chant There's always. There are always these extremes that today The teaching of the buddha is always steering between these two streams.
The extremes are believing in kind of tree will that most status have very that familiar. And that's the straight. And the other the opposite stream is sort of absolutely deter as i tends to make people feel like it doesn't matter what I do and nothing matters. Nothing I do makes any difference. Know everything would happen right. That's that's the stream. And neither one of those, does the one of those produces getting sort of useful. Approach life. Just and the other there was, you know, mentioned and Karma and what you do in this life has it damn previous lives and future lives and things like that.
That was the other two extremes that the buddha is steering us between. The one air. He he says there is no self and any view that holds to the Id idea or something During eternal. So that that notion of the incarnation is spills around. This flaw. Does work. But the other extreme Of was saying, that... Well, it it's just... Everything is material materialistic and at least a kind of nihilism and actually needs same places determine as sort place a hopelessness and naming. So steering between those.
That was extremes. In the get evolution of the spiritual path. We have the opportunity bouncing off of those extremes. It's very important to. With what's known in the Christian tradition from Saint, John the cross the dark knight of the soul dark knight the spirit. Which is a period of despair hopelessness. To the christian that's pointing where. God it seems to have disappeared. And everything becomes meaningless. I. And yeah, the description and the buddhist description of the progress stages of the path to.
Wait It is a corresponding series of events that are sometimes referred to as the duke as the knowledge as of suffering. And there. They're really in the same kind of thing as the dark knight soul because as you practice the dha as you can explore it, the idea of no self cease to be just an intellectual. And the idea that he the world as you perceive it, does really quick ships? That those perceptions are empty. So they're just projections of your mind. Likewise cease this to become. K. And philosophical notion and intellectual enterprise.
There are those experiences that are revealing of the truth that. And now the conscious intellectual level, They're wonderful experience. It's. Oh, wow. Listen Permanent is really sure. Emptiness is really true. There know, really isn't any self. But they have this really deep down fact really deep down and and the psyche. That That part of you that even though their intellectual understanding was there, still kept on feeling like a real solid real self in this world, which was understandable and and inter relatable with and stood on its own ground.
And they may be made up of things that don't last forever, but my gosh, they asked the one, and I thought we can play out to them and treat her mess her own. That affects our deep intuitive level of perception. Nothing had changed but then these experiences lead to a change and the Intuitive Understand. So they're deep down in the site, all psyche all of a sudden. Everything is underlined. If there is no cell and what is there. And it's if there's not a concrete dr world of like it appears to be what is there and that deep part of the mind where those questions are main confronted where the beliefs that you lived with your whole life have rested Now now they're beginning to dissolve the work.
Their rises up out of that. A feeling a despair hopelessness no fear, you know, all the elements are that dark not solve. And that's one of those extremes. The opposite exchanges is that meditate and experience a lot of joy, you cultivate a lot of loving kindness compassion and you feel what with everything and your nice new age touch you that's the other extreme. I been. And so, you know, you're sure of steering between these trying to find main channel. To the troops for the reality so the way new are.
And that is it's pretty hard to grasp. That's that's sort of what we were wrestling with we touched on that one talking about. How car it works and how even though there's no cell or what made. Conference still produces. Checks. Trying get avoid these extremes very straight payment. Exchange. But these... Well, only one of the two extremes on each side is all that frightening. But either extreme is taking to off course, either stream smith's to meet. So Joy is not a scientist? What's that? So joy is not a scientist.
No nevertheless like is assigned first. Jo is not the fine. Go. Joey is just a condition. That the state. Okay. So i'm it's just one of those many things that come go. Being able to being able to cultivate. That's that's a very great achievement. But the most important thing about it is using it in an appropriate way. Using it to counter at least the tendency to despair the losing losing the anchor on the apparent reality that. And, you know, admittedly, it's very difficult if there is is self that doesn't that make everything kind of meaningful?
And the answer is he ask skip does from what place that we usually contract. Does it have to... Does absolutely have to be that way. No. As a matter of fact, the self doesn't exist anyway. And never did. It's not like you're losing something that was there. You're only losing a illusion. You know, losing something that goes was appearance. That was It's our life is not more meaningless with without a cell, than it is with herself. Life is no more meaningless and world but is empty event. It is you know, a world consisting self existent real objects that bounce around with each other all the time, and let we try to grasp on to.
It all has to deal with perspective from which we look at it. Yep Could you review a little bit the role of attention when you were talking and and the past? To weeks your discussion? The role of attention. Of attention as it relates to karma and our conception of what is real in the world and things like that. Yes. Well, attention... There's... A field of conscious awareness that meet experience in any moment. That attention is where most early consciousness is it was concentrated. Right? Yep that's a pretty...
I think straightforward and he's way vision in but what what's happening going to why. The only reality that we know is the reality that we're conscious of. And that part of what we're conscious of that part of the field are conscious we're wearing. That where consciousness is most concentrated, that's what we call attention. And so whatever the view is that we have of the world and whatever the view is that we have sales. It's constantly being fine tuned and modified light. Based on what you're having conscious experience of and older, and that's most especially true what you're paying attention to.
But as is is really obvious to anyone very quickly. There's so much more than what we pay attention to. In any different moment. There's so much more and what we consciously aware of. Much less that part what we're consciously aware out where attention this focus. If your understanding of the world, And if your idea of who you are is constantly being formed in response to what you're conscious of is being formed in particular in response to what you pay attention to. And yeah what you pay attention to.
Is that a very tiny sampling of what's available to pay attention to. So how do you use your attention? Is a very important karma act. What you pay attention to what you pay attention to internally? And why to pay attention to customer. Yeah. Well, I have heard the phrase expressed before as I'll see it when I believe it. Wait see. See it when I believe see okay. I'll see if. Yeah. And that's it. And if that's kind of what you're saying, it sounds very much like that's kind of what you're saying then When you start becoming aware that it's not how we used to make it was we've changed how we think we changed there for how we see.
What? What tells you that you're not still all just making it Well, ted... Yes. Do you need something to tell you just make me get Yeah. Actually, I do. K. Do you think you did you want? Well, I I mean, you know, don't fit me that it it's like this. If I think i much you know. But you see that's if you if you read looked at these fda's teachings, key not us. It doesn't mess around. It says everything is ultimately, you not not not another step honest. Ultimately, empty of being the way we perceive it.
It doesn't say it's empty or being the way be proceeded right now. Yes. It's most definitely empty variant. It's not just saying that it's going going to be empty of the way we see it tomorrow even though tomorrow, we may have a much more refined understanding. It's saying that there is no place where the human bond can grasp ultimate reality and say, i know it. This is what he is. The doctor of Is saying. Any human blind for whatever kind in whatever state. Whatever it perceives is empty of being that away from his own outside.
Is only a projection in that right. Now yes. We're willing to give our press, if somebody promises a solid un changing reality that we can replace it with. It's much more of a challenge to be willing to. And say, well, whatever i mind produces, no matter what where man health. Get too. That's a much... That's... That's the bigger step. And that's why with the more you start to having implants that Well, this is really true. But my mind is never going to be able to grasp and say, I got it. I got...
I got to final This is it. Or as Krishna would say. No shipment bing can ever truly know god. That version of it seems so much more eligible. Well I mean, we'll cut dad so slack, but we won't cut this ultimate un, any. I think probably probably just because we haven't. Fought either of these things through carefully option completely and you know. But If you've find if you find the idea of of drive. Easier to accept than the un ultimately, i would be. Then by means that use status as a starting point.
You said something to work but ask yourself? Okay. You're that's dude. What why you Like... Why is that whatever whatever? What kind of... What things are my mind doing? Games is my mind playing that it produces a greater level of comfort looking at that idea when it does looking into something. But the other part of it that I was really wanting to get this set? You don't you don't need grasp reality. You want it but you dominated it. That one to for well, and and just the proof of it is. You lived your whole life up to now.
Yes has everyone you know and as does everybody in the world. In an illusion. It hasn't been problem. So why should the idea that you could never get past illusion? If it's worked up on now. All you have to do is let go of the idea that Thanks but your mind has to be able to grasp reality in essence. All you have to do is free yourself from that notion. But I would think it hasn't worked up until now. So that's why we're trying to go beyond. Okay. Point. Yes. Alright. And it's all worked and the relative sense.
So we didn't realize it was a problem. And I suppose for somebody on spiritual accounts. He might been holding just around the corner was a true reality that you could grasp. And once you had grasp it, that's at whole phones are. Okay. So you do have to give up on that. Because, you know, this spiritual path is about realizing the true nature of the reality. And we can understand a lot of things about the true nature reality. One of the things about the true nature of reality is that it is not g on to him in mind.
But there are a whole lot of things that we can't understand throughout. And those things really do have a lot of need that how the effects that we were hoping for from discovering a a grasp reality. They do confirm that. And the emptiness of our perceive world and the index of our perceived cell. Are two aspects of exactly the same thing. And when we let go would we let over of the illusion of self? It may seem like we're losing the self, but we're actually gaining everything regaining the universe we're gaining world.
And it also works the other way when we when we give up the need to perceived made for our mind to able to grasp away things really hard. What we gain is a great treatment part release. It may seem like web, you know, I here I was I just... I've i been trying so hard to understand the way this wrong works. So I can get it to work the way I want to. Right So i could they chat the way. I need them to happen to. But then you discover that well, that's not the way it works anyway. This rings us back to Karma.
It's not what happens to you. Is who head happened to. Current determine is who it happens to. So it's not it's not figuring out the nature of reality so you can manipulate it more effectively to get it to do. What you'd want? Is realizing that. It is the way it is. It's not gonna change. You're not gonna be able to figure it out well not to manipulate it and maybe it do what you wanna do. So instead of you can't embrace it fully as it is, asking it to be different. So that the ultimate nature reality may be empty.
Could you kind of breaks that hampton. The only thing I I didn't follow in that is when you said, I think you said thick karma determines who it happens to. That's right. I don't get that. Okay. Karma texas. Create who you are. Mh. It is that aspect of causality. That level of by which we by risk this psycho physical entity that each service has. Creates itself. They're potentially self. Okay. So that's that's why... What happens to you is the result of the other kinds of cost. And sometimes where you are is also the result of karma.
If you're a Karma. Causes the person you are to be a cheap state. You might walk down the dark street to taking a account. So that's connor that put view there. Right. But if something happens on that street, Whoever it happens to? And how how are you respond to wanna so forth? That's also if turn by. Makes sense. Can can that even go a little bit further if we if we don't use our attention and our mind and our intention to create a self, then there won't be something there for things to happen to.
That's true. And that's just the alternate that they to going beyond. That's the that's on our. That's booting going going beyond the cell. Just the intermediate stage. That at one point, you know, I I talked to this group about I called it sole creation. You can't... you know, as long as you believe you Yourself. Long do you feel like you're yourself and your mind is constructing an idea who you are. You could use that. Positively. I mean, the top means though no self, no salt. But is speaking true that that is is speaking an alternate alternative truth Whereas the relative truth is that we've that we have egos, and we do feel what we are separate shots.
So while we're in that place of thinking that we are set ourselves and creating this stuff that we can take a positive responsible role for the self we create. In other words, Ultimately, there may be no soul. But so long as there is the experience of so, do you have the power to create the soul that you are experiencing in process that. Yes. Several years ago. I had something happen that double by income. Right? And florida, and still to this day, I find myself living on my previous income. I don't have it.
K. But that is slowly changing. Like every instance is new. Chance to change that. But you can make yourself crazy, trying to figure out the kind... Path some of the We you try and figure out how you got to where you are? No. No. I I just see that What was my car that caused that event that made this huge change in my life? And I... And tell you it shouldn't I turn back in and again in the didn't I could. You would do it. They turned it back in. You turned back half. Yeah. Know, they are waiting?
No. Yeah. But you know, there's there's not a lot to be gained by trying to figure out. Right. But what led to particular plays? So why spend any time on at all? I don't know any reason to. Except just spend enough time on it to recognize that what you do down. Terms what's gonna happen in the future. And you don't need to... You don't need to plan of path in the future, like I'm gonna do this and it leads it that and that's gonna lead do this, and that's gonna be other. All you have to do is to follow a few basic principles.
And the rest will take care. So and the basic principles are... Now the big principles are there ones that are in the pre and the young and the perfection. They are the Essentially the the essence of the dha is a basic trace that. All of your suffering, all of your future suffering is going to be caused by craving and the form of desire and increasing. And that craving is rooted and ignorance doctor to away things really are. So if you... So one of the things one of the things you would like not to have in the future is more suffering than you can talk Kevin.
So therefore, anything that you do that any ways that you can behave anyways that you can think any you practice that you can't do that are gonna reduce the power of desire and version has compulsions in your mind. That's going to help. Anything you could do? That is going to mitigate gave the degree of ignorance That is present. That is getting rice for those crazy is going to help. And if you if you look at the pre, they're all about practicing behaving the way you would is you, we're not rules by crazy.
And if you were not subject to the attachment to the cell, think you are. The rest Of just studying studying practicing I darn know that, you know, with the darn is method for doing exactly what you're saying. Entirety of the dha the way the buddha taught not their religious ones Out it to do all. But The teaching of of the buddha was, you know, it's a straightforward way. This is this is how you can take control of the process of self creation. Right. Using his understanding and his principles, and doing these practices which are laid out.
And if you do those, they're you're going to be making the kind of karma which is on the one hand going to make you what matter what happens to in making him beep the kind of person that you're going to prefer be one of those things happen. And the other name is the ultimate the ultimate hand is to overcome these things tire make i overcome the email said what we're creating and entirely. It is. Yeah is nutshell sure. The trick is curing meant. Yeah. Are cultivating each of these pre to a middle way that is neither craving or version, get you out of a dark night of the soul What did you call it Luca...
Duke technology suffering. Yeah. Good good. Got it. How how is how is I was steering a successful little. Okay. You're not steering between desire and version. Oops Just desire you're gonna version at. Different for. But there two forms of craving. Okay. What is the craving for and other is are creating against? Okay. Basically the both code. So what you're trying to steer this between is the mistaken notions. That we harbor that reinforce training. Well, there is a lifetime right there. Well, yeah and the fact is and, you know, whatever if you down the way this path works if you did nothing.
But keep pre ups and practice perfection at practice mindfulness and your interactions to the data of the life and things like at. You'd be able to make all kinds of changes in yourself. But it it's it takes a lot of time. And we might not live more have to make all the changes if we wanted do. So fortunately, In addition to doing that, there are other things that we can do, but accelerate the prospects, basically by cutting to the root. Dealing with the thoughts and speech action that arise, how creating is one thing.
Practicing mindfulness and moderating the whole of craving has over here is a good thing. But you can go to the route and going to the group means overcoming the ignorance or the illusion, that allow the causes keeps causing that craving to come out. Have... That's the other the other part. If it were just if it was just an ethical tradition. If it just we're late of living. It it will do good things for you. You know? It it will make changes in here. But if the route of creating is eight ignorance about the true nature of reality nature cell.
If it is the ignorant belief and the reality of the cells and and that there is a world out there separate from myself. That is more or less the way it appears to be. Then gives you kinda work overcome that ignorance. Then you liberate the craving have source. So we're trying to overcome ignorance, but we can never load the truth. What we're i'm trying to overcome ignorance it's in the sense of being able to know god or being able to somehow have a human line grasp. So there's a smaller level of ignorance that we can.
That's right. If we if you overcome the ignorant internet belief and and we're yourself. And the first step is the ego. Is you can over the overcome attachment to the ego. And see really so that the ego instead of being something that controls en your behavior. And instead just becomes a psychological tool of the mind that does things like keeping your laundry receptor from somebody else and making sure we've had things like that. That's what the ego supposed to do. It's not supposed to letting the show.
But we believe that we are self and when we look what we see is the ego, so we believe we are attached to ego. Very first thing you can do Yes. You can see through the ego overcome the attachment here. Now that's full string entry. That's the first stage of enlightenment. You still has the ignorance of leaving that you are a separate itself. And so even through the sergeant stages you're dealing with you know, I am this precious cell. I don't believe I'm this ego anymore. And so it doesn't make me do all kinds of things Are used to do.
But... And and there's a series of stages stage after stream is is called the once return in the stage after that is the not return. Both the last return had on return. Both of these stages still feel like they are accepted. So and even though not return, the one that is very close to full enlightenment man. Has craving for existence. Because. So now i'm charge still is myself I need, and I don't wanna lose my myself. Even of illusion. So So you can fully know that it's illusion and still wanna keep it.
Yeah. Because knowing it intellectually, doesn't change the way feels can their heart. And the way that's described the distinction between those this big ego or the Personality view is it's sometime as the poly ridge sometimes translated. But I think Gin and English had it purposes. But is the Ego, but then there's what's called the inherent sense of stuff. I'm matter what you know. The inherent sentence the deep rooted feeling you house. I am still a separate. So and that's that's what I fully, like being fastest.
That's why Do our passes behind. But, hey. Look how much further year ahead even if you would become stream you're no longer you no longer believe that this mental idea of who you are this ego is your real cell. That's a huge piece of ignorance to the avoid account right there. Yes. There's still more. There's still mortgage ignorance to. When you when you're no longer attached to. Because you still have this inherent sense themselves. You still experience desire reimbursement. And at these subsequent went two.
Stages prior to our not. You greatly diminish the area hold that desired version has on you, but i've gave me that's. But as long as, you experience yourself as a said stuff as long as there's that experience itself. You're not gonna be totally free impaired. Still gonna be there. So that's the ignorance aspect of. The wisdom, which is a counterpart factor. Includes understand of realization of the true nature reality that while it may not be it may not take the form that we would like to imagine because we would like to imagine that the self and the form of the human in mind and know the way things really are, and that's not possible.
And that's what Not going to. But there can't be a realization. The true nature reality that liberate you they made or desire for that kind. Yeah that that wisdom though. That's not over coming of. There's many aspects of which you're talking about. We realize I'm not server herself, down that means that a whole idea of separation of abuse illusion. Right Number There's a number of other ideas I can generate around that. I can imagine. Myself as a part of the day hope. I can't think of my true self as being...
You know, this is Alright. And hindu tradition at the new the liver itself and you realize your true nature has the large stuff, which is brahma in the creator area and the Christian tradition is becoming one who's got. It's the lion gave. So all of these ideas naturally arise had of a partial understanding of the trade nature and reality. And they they are reflections. On the one hand of a certain degree of wisdom on the other hand of a certain degree of ignorance and attachment to to their remaining idea.
So. Yeah. You mentioned very briefly your art and I'm wondering if there's a f that is larger through heart rather than in in speaking where by language which is a it's a vehicle of the mind that is there that while we or mind I think is Terms it in terms of a path there. Where we're going? Have mean what saying care of this is what you can do with the mind intellectually if my mind would be thought. that's kind of abstract i understand server forth. That's very hard to. And don't matter how well you understand these truths as long as in your heart, you still attached to the illusions.
It's not gonna do much great. So ultimately, inside is a change of heart. Inside the supra insight is a transformation of your intuitive understanding of the way things are. If that's the change your part. That means that the way you experience banks, where fields changes. Now in terms of the path, there are paths that put much more emphasis on the heart and other past if there's more emphasis on on the bind and those kinds of tools. The path of cert is it is a fact that tough this more emphasis, almost the heart.
Doing that and meditation and things like that is ef things add more about what you would call the hard gloves. Line lower. And the matter what task you're on It probably believe should be elements of all of these. You don't, if you're on a path that is mostly wanted have wisdom kind an understanding. It needs some have elements in it. Otherwise it's going to be very effective. But even if if you're on a path primarily want hurt. Wanna service one of love things like that. There's gotta be some understanding but right there.
To to help you... Yeah. And they had there's different paths in that stuff. But always pass converge on the same place, which is the transformation has to take place at they at the level of experiencing, which is what? I think you would usually think of us as the hard going. Okay. Well, it's already already after eight three spent. Evening for riding employee on everything. Okay. Yeah how people already that. So would without the rest of you. So Thank you for. Brian will be here next thursday the evening.
Yeah. Sure. That wonderful thanks to say, and I'll be back to weeks time. Wonderful for two weeks and. This yeah. And window one. The thing you can close the door close the door. No. It's good. Okay. So I got to see that right of away alarming the plants so that I just wanna make sure I don't get these wet. So... Oh, yeah. Development and know why surrounded right blah blah blah heavy. Like where it all come out of on. Maybe it shouldn't be a full thing. She said news was this it's the management was asking seem like a lot.
It it seems so else You know late when that happens. Those Carol wanted that when happened. Somebody cheryl.