Joyful Stillness – April 20-25, 2011 (5 of 6)
5 day Easter Samatha-Vipassana Meditation Retreat
Upasaka Culadasa at Manzanita Village, California
April 20, 2011 – April 25, 2011
“When the mind is uplifted by joy the body becomes all tranquil” – Buddha
Audio Parts: 1 2 3 4 5 6
Joy plays a very special role in Buddhist practice. The spontaneous arising of Joy marks an important stage in the progress of meditation practice. Meditative Joy, often referred to as rapture, is one of the Seven Factors of Enlightenment taught by the Buddha. It is also a factor of deep meditative absorption. Joy is distinguished from happiness or bliss, with which it is easily confused. Learn how to awaken joy, so essential to the spiritual life. This Samatha-Vipassana silent residential meditation retreat offers extensive opportunity to deepen your practice through alternating sitting and walking meditation as well as instruction, personal interviews, Dharma talks/discussion and meditative movement sessions.
Does anybody have any questions? lots it. That. Gillian right. Okay. What the purpose we stay no so? In Indian language. Well, the poly language? But the reason I do that it's basically the the records and the first the first five pre have been spoken in that language for twenty five hundred years of. When I do it in that language, I feel like I'm connected to all of those thousands and thousands, hundreds of thousands millions of people over all that time who have observed the same tradition. So that's threes.
So I mean, there's really no reason at all. I had keep done in English or matter that or any other language. It sounds beautiful though. No. It it's the tradition is very nice. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Last night, we you we to approach to deal with the po destruction issues sensation to be strong confident. Yes. The first approach have go into a detail concentration occasion right. They will see or whatever. The area is a cheaper distance for them and do your meditation to experience the credits. Those two approach is different different direction.
Right? Why they cannot try to a situations. On the presentation, the data five both of them two one, you can choose either of that yeah two one for the same situation I tried to figure his situation there. You either up party's one more one. How can you choose it. How do you choose? How can You choose? No know Because what's all it can apply you can choose the yellow one right. But they are different. Right? So is under hot visit? You can choose that? Okay. I choice become the choice. Alright. Just how i to real world.
Yeah. Just to remind very well. It was... The question was what happens what how do you deal with it? Well the sensations of the grill? Become disturbing almost painful or maybe fan or as I said that there were two things you could do. One is that you could stay with those sensations and just go into about deeply because... And the reason for that, the reason for doing that is to take advantage of the tremendous acuity of your consciousness that allows those faint sensations to take process magnitude.
You know what I mean by acuity? Like? Okay. Yeah. So to be clear, sharp being, you know, very sensitive. So like visual acuity, you you see things very clearly from that. So when your mind is that sharp. You can take advantage of that. And that's an opportunity to to go into the actual situation that they in that you right at the moment. The mine is very shallow to see to to experience this tool. The mine has to be sharp. Collaboration of sensation. Yeah. Right in that particular example, the mine has to be very sharp.
In order for the sensations to be some attempts that they're uncomfortable. And that's what way of that this devil might not be exactly the same as other situation. But anyway, just to remind you the other choice where that happens. Is you back away, you expand your awareness so that the intensity diminishes it becomes easier to just continue training yourself and. Yeah. I I think stability of attention and have my words. And The reason for taking that approach dental approach is backing away. It's a way, retraining.
Why would you do that? Just fresh. How would you do that? But but before we start talking about that, what you're really saying is that with any difficulty a new experience in your life. You have basically the same two options. You can confronted it. If you can go in it. You can. You can see what it has to teach tune you you can attain some sort of mastery over the difficulty. Or you can dive away from it. And so how did you choose between us too? And the important thing that you have to realize is that when you back away from something?
You only provided yourself a temporary short term solution? Nothing has changed. Other they have you back away from the difficulty difficulty. Right? And so the causes is of the difficulty, especially the inner causes of difficult But really all of the causes of the difficulty still exist. And so we probably going to try again. Whereas if you if if when you do confront it, you made through the determination to stay with it, see it takes you word your way through it. You could come to something that's much much more interesting much more propel.
So you might look at those two choices and say, well, in that case, why not always just try to drill through anything. No matter what it is. Just trying to stick with it and and drill through it. But the practice is that we can't always succeed at that. We can always see you can Sometimes you're ready and sometimes you're not. One thing that occurs to me is, you know, they would say a military in general It's a good good good general. Choose his battles and those went to retreat. Am in that way, becomes ultimately victorious.
And I think that that same principle applies but whatever. You need to decide whether it's wiser to would be to back away and and confront this another day when you are more likely to succeed or whether this is the time to to pursue it to go into it. With with your full your full attention, your full awareness and kind complete determination to see through So it choose to go into it. Probably will be fail. And Go very much. If you you see there's something. If you think you're going to feel, like, if we just take the example of somebody who is you know, not a really experienced, but they reach a situation and where he's pain.
If they're not going to be able to work through that pain and transcend that pain. Then at some like they are going to have to knock off and if they don't, if they pushed themselves too law, they're going to create themselves for resistance against continuing the metric. The dissatisfaction and help about whether they're capable of this a doubt about whether this is really something that's worth doing. And that does happen. Yeah. Alright. So And that's why I say if you're dealing with pain your legs when you're sitting.
You say you wouldn't look as long as you can't, but when you realize And you realize that you're going to have to give into good that accept out and do it with a complete mindfulness. Right? Because the pain always gonna have that always gonna have another chance. And next time it might be successful. So it's no really a. You are very quick. What's that. It's no proof. No. There's... You want to probably me something, but you don't need to prove any. Yeah. So just... You know, do you example general, all you need it.
If we took it general army me and said, okay, to be a good general. You never retrain. What's gonna happen most likely might is army gonna be destroyed. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah Listen is dutch or this is a feeling or is the Duty decide their takes. It takes advantage. It takes wisdom. It takes honesty with yourself. Because what a person may do honesty like say. Yes They back the way once, they backed away twice, and maybe that was really the right thing to do that. But then they they keep on backing away.
If they're honest with themselves, then that's not quite they're to realize that that this is gonna go on forever. And that they don't need to keep backing away i think already reach the point where they can confront the difficulty team and work their way through. And you know, even anybody if somebody backs away or times so They need to. That's our too. As long as eventually, they do what they need to do. For time. Time. I just would like to share a live experience yesterday ai experience. Well, yesterday, I went out at this morning I told you that.
So I didn't... Yesterday, I went out. To take a look right by the. After i seventy nine, when I turn back They were like this one use so like, almost set up about sixty calls, you know, in front of our gate. And those six because yesterday when I returned, they brought the. Now I went now No I gonna try find way. So I don't... Probably I can use. I gonna use my work medication to walk through those colors. When I face those cars, you know, I stay them they they always them up. You know? And instead me.
I I don't or I paid dungeon to tribes. You know? But I went in you know ab choices. Right. Do yeah. Well but I i I don't I i I don't want to go crazy. I probably will trying to figure out it i'll come back. Almost Now I tried several times to try to go through there, but I I have for three. Know? No because I i approach them, I i fear that. Fear, no. I I could feel sensation. Know but Okay. So I worked on the fence, you know And I found i found a spot. They they were like, know, stones, so I crumb over defense, you know, but the way a no way out, active.
So I thought I I I I I don't have that. Courage to face those calls, you know? Totally sense. I I think it... You know... But but that feels still is it. So so something just like you you said that coming that fear, know, sometimes somehow something will be very similar, like, those calls. Know. Face myself. I don't... I still don't have that courage to overcome those. If I don't have a courage to walk through cars. Probably is it's a major, you know, note that Brilliant. But feel still exist. I I don't think I i I I have courage that.
So he if it's a tooth two choice. Green. Well bang. Yeah. A big off. Alright. Make got away for me. Mh. But then what... What i was saying okay. Yes. That choice doesn't likely described. You know, just one all way out. Question about? For happiness but we still apply this to approach, treat or concepts to feel more, more happiness or buying sensation, Okay. You're asking if you... If you're seeing a lot of drawing pleasure. Now why would you... What would be the reasoning behind treating for that?
What you retrieve because you want handle cover, you face like difficulty. Wait what's the difficulties? Oh. I'm not saying the peter what why this all attitude. You feel your body feel grade joyful. You you you can choose to retrieve all still In terms of medication, Always, what whatever's is happening? Go for it. Be totally mindful, exploring it discover by deals. So there's no so there's no reason to retrieve from that. No. There is a somewhat similar situation, which is thinking and once again out of meditation into the real world where things are happening that provide you with a lot of players and satisfaction.
And there is the danger that you're right become very attached to that. If you can recognize that danger then that is... And if you recognize if that's what's happening to, That's a good reason to back away, but it's not... It doesn't mean that it doesn't mean that you should necessarily abandoned the circumstances that are providing in his pleasure and satisfaction. But what you really need to amend is the tendency that you have to become sane. And you do that by realizing that if you become attached to them they're going cause you suffering because they not got the routes.
And especially, you realize that you kinda attach to them. It will affect the way you think and the way you've had. And you'll probably end up doing same things that you will ultimately automatically regret. Because I think we've all had the expansion or life at some time right out. Where... We felt so good about something. That we became over confident arrogant and we be have to behave in ways that actually healing needed other people around us sense. So that's the danger too. Of having too much pleasure the satisfaction and the work.
That's. I usually say when you she will success. Is behind. That's right. Yeah. That the that will find you. Tempting you getting you into this trip. Sure they not both contain together as main success failure. Yeah you know, one is really contained in the other at the same time. Count sense. Well, any any success you you have success and now you have the potential that whatever nice situation happen there it's going to dissolve eventually that. Right? Or if you have some some bad situation, that also forever, But that's just...
I don't see them a separate. I see them as kind of the same. Well same. They are in the same in everything. Everything... Dependent upon houses and conditions. And those causes conditions are going to cease successfully. Everything is front it. And so that's really the sense in which they're all the same to to be overwhelmed by difficulty is to forget that this tasks. And to become attached to good experiences is to forget the distribution paths. When it does if you're attached discomfort. If you have, there's an interesting thing about where you're going for this.
You see? What? What the buddha said about fully? What said about buddha. Is good. That being still experiences things as pleasant on. It's not the case that i need become a buddha. Yeah. You have an accident break your leg that it doesn't it's not painful. But that doesn't mean. Booth suffers because of the pain the way the person does. They experienced both pleasure and and because, know, well, the other way, you know, the other way of stating the first of truth is that pain and pleasure are inevitable suffering as optional.
So you wanna get to the place where you have the cal entity? And doesn't mean ind. It doesn't make that you're incapable of experiencing pleasure pain. It's that when you do experience them. You don't we react to you don't you know don't, react to them with desire reversing. That's... So in that sense you're right. Both the pleasure and paying both good things and data things are exactly the same. Permanent. They do causes and conditions. And to the degree that they elicit, any desire or version that you you're going to experience the dissatisfaction and return.
Status. This see if I get this. So for example, you you walk it around, so you break your leg. Right? You can react two ways. One way would be okay. I broke my leg. That's that's fine. I mean, damn hurts, but That's fine. Let's go here and get the cast whatever. But you just deal with it. You you don't try to be with the sensation. Sometimes you will be sometimes you won't be. And that's that. Or or for example, there's the other side of coin, for example, I I know why we just have, like, a serious car accident.
And I saw her like a few months later. And I asked to, you know like she really busted up her needs. I said, alan. So she describes herself when she need to introduce herself she describes cripple. Right. And she has his whole mental mindfulness and put together that now she's a critical person and then, you need to help me all those kind of things. So is that kind of a a good example where one is chest you know, she's creating the the basically suffering part if she's creating the suffering part.
That's good example. This. Fast. All my meditation experience out. So the the times when I have for patients things is is always good energy and and every single time when meditation is bad the energy levels all almost always a very great core. It feels like feels like, you know, only the card and i'll I have... Like you wanna guess this on a steering wheel, I'm pointing into into the right direction I was hitting the gas but then there's nothing in the gas thing. I couldn't really give give you give very thought know I think the energy the energy a very critical part of of meditating well and And you know, I guess, I think you can be translated into, like, or i things you know what I like to hear what you have to say about your experience, you know, when you're end achievable level very, very before.
You know, where you're able to to have a good patience to this for me it's it's never the case I can never have. Good man patient and you was very very. You're asking about my experience? I'd how low energy or less. Yeah. For three three Because of california. But you know, it hasn't affected my meditation. And I how to think about how I would explain that. I've had times. You know, in spite of me low. I I tried to always to teach my medication in the diamond class is on Thursday night Tucson and time yeah that's strong over road.
And often it would happen. You know, the class started at six o'clock in at five o'clock, I just crashed. No energy. I'd be trying to teach and it's like I be halfway through saying something, and my brain just wouldn't give me the words or I would forget to find out strike, you know, I would do is a really difficult struggle. And I would do my guess, you know, course time. Speech time problem. But that when time came to that say, I never doubt a off. What was another question is, in the last three years to be doing any of your meditation since were do any bad because because maybe for you, you're you're you're not like...
You're not no. Seriously So you know what I say is there's no such thing as a beta education except where you don't actually try to meditate. So... But I think what you mean five that is meditations where how would experience a lot of I mean a difficulty sustaining a level of concentration or dr. And I can remember remember one time I I had a lot of difficulty sleeping i area. I can't remember why. Yeah know why. Anyway, You know the time of time. I have thinking. And then I was leading meditation since to next morning.
And the first set was just like, oh, as soon as I sat down I was falling asleep. But something about the second fifth. The energy came up but I got through it. But that that's a that would be an example. Bad. So it's one one time three years. And well, i I I don't know that it was necessarily only time, but there haven't been but it directly correlated with, you know, not getting enough sleep. Enterprise system times when I I and I think I I don't know that... As long as you're a a human being with a human brain at your end the world, there's going to be times when you have a lot of agitation, and we're they might take a long time of meditation to to really get your mind stable.
And that that does happen to me. If things are agitated, like, you know, I said the other night you think you're in light girl see your family. My sister came to this if he months. Yeah. She managed to get me so upset that went on on a sunday or i was trying to bet leaving meditation. My mind so. No. I can say happened. So so when the elements are are stronger it's media and so h the henderson there's side actually do very. Got it. Yeah. Okay. That's right. You you describe the motivation, you know that ten stages.
But my experience that it seems that, Sometimes I have four back to second third stage from, but I had and i tell you. Is that the no one experience? Because is that is precisely the normal experience. But what person experience is that at any given time there they're you know, I Get any given period of time say over a period of you know, more than just this retreat the over period of days or weeks. That their meditations will move back and forth over two to three stages. I have good medications that that and you say hold or I at to stage that screen at the next day.
Do you find your there two stages back? That's very normal. What? Over time, though, you know, it's it's, like two steps forward once step back. Over time, you're always progressing, but you're kind booting that. Pen defense depends sleep you how how much stress through this in your life, while things are happening around you. So that is completely on. The other thing that is normal? Is for you every now then to have meditation that is really wonderful. You know? It's like you're at the stage stage three and all of a sudden you have a stage eight meditation you got all kinds of joy.
And you hey, I you do you think oh. That's great. I want this now lot, but why not happen again for years. It won't happen again till you accident. Well, it can happen by accident and we'll have these times that we have these really tremendous experiences by accident. But all they're doing is showing us what we're capable. It's like like a little gift saying, this is what you have to look forward to if you keep working on the practice. What best you get to password word? It's consistency account.
So you, you'll get to the place where you're you maybe sometimes stage four is sometimes of stage five, some say stage six. But you almost never go back to stage three. You know, that that's the kind. It's keeps moving for forward everybody. Although I I I think it's probably obvious, but I'll say, anyway. You might be at stage and I can. But if something sufficiently just there happens in your life. You might sit down and find your stage too. I know it's a big group of people are medic medicaid the goal is the blindness.
And is there give this this many people's looking for have you thought about like, maybe they should create a way to circuit by already or that because there are so many force plan. They ten. Yeah. Right. Yeah. A very good points because really information. To be a alignment and had a sense they ultimate sheet. So very ambitious person. You know, my my crave to be seen as having achieved that And then the other thing is that a person might convince themselves. They might sincerely believe that they're kinda.
And they what about and right in person and they shifted it and change it in their mind. So they say, alright that describes me. That's great how should my speed. And our first thing too will enjoy other people convince people at other people say oh, yeah. She's fine for sure keep way. Ultimately, if you're looking at what to to buddha taught about it, Like, he describes the way in that enlightened person. Yes. And and and the way they are depending on which stage are, like their. And so ultimately away, if you look at a person and they don't manifest those characteristics.
Yeah. They're not like. Like some of these people that call themselves and lightning, but they they mis appropriate funds for the temple or the center and they have sex with their students and they do things like that. You look at those... You know, obvious well. And the right person it doesn't be that. To just did describe what enlightened Person is like and, of course to go by somebody's behavior in the world. You to watch over a long period of time. And that's actually what... You know, you If a teacher thinks that somebody may have achieved a stage of writing model.
Del tell, basically that we'll see over the next six months the year two years. If then it it persists or if it's temporary and fades away. So basically, a person who's achieved the first stage of enlightenment is there they no longer are attached to the the belief that they are there's this separate cell have although, they still have an ego. They don't believe in their. You know, they still have a sense of of of being high plan way, and I have these think, But they don't believe that. That has a profound effect on the way that they behave.
It affects because it's ignorance about the cell that causes us to be so powerfully over pound by craving, right, Desire in the very. And because craving is the cause of suffering. A person who has achieved diverse first stage of enlightenment where they know longer believe in in the personal self reality. Just going to change that sense that. They don't experience the kind of suffering that they used to. And they don't manifest the kind of behavior that comes out desire in the version that i used to.
They will still have a desire version. And they will still have suffering. But the difference is that when the suffering reaches a certain point, give weeks fill up again and they realize i open and that's why didn't this why. You know, we talk a little bit about how we make our own suffering. So a person who has achieved this degree of wisdom, can. Forget it for a while. But at some point, the fact that they're suffering is their remind that they don't have to keep doing. So And the same thing, they may act out of desired version, but they acts our or had impact some people around but.
And when they see the impact that they have on people who around up, that's gonna have the same effect. It's gonna say wait. Why don't I do? Why, you know, why am I letting this take me over cause me behave that? So somebody who has reached that for stated is not going to us the kind of ego behavior, self centered behavior. Selfish, the kind of the the tendency to engage and un wholesome non virtuous behaviors. Doesn't what mean, you know, there's one thing that not not in the buddhist teaching, but in the tradition and developed afterwards in some hand south societies, they say, a stream entrance.
Somebody has achieved the first stage of appointment. Is not capable of current virtuous behavior. And that's not really true. Because the stream entrant can still end engage in on vi behavior to a limit to degree But it's it's just a question of laps into state of how forgetful. And the consequences of the un behavior wake them up. That's all of it does persist. So when you see somebody, you know, if if somebody he appears to you to be in enlightened or claims to you to be home, you can examine their behaviors and and draw your conclusions right.
The next stage of language. Is where I exactly what happens is, first of all, there's this experience. You know, you have more mindfulness for us when you reach the first stage. So you're going to you like bit more line. And at some point you realize that there's all these different mental states. Know I talked about Julian is mental states, but they're mind is always in some state either. And your might you become aware of an capitalization At some point you realize that the only truly also natural state that you experience he is a mental state, in which desire anniversary or enhancement craving to completely cast upon.
Have, when that happens. That's when a percent actually becomes reaches the second stage of the enlightenment. But They realized that the only thing the only meaningful thing I can possibly do is trying to complete the permanently approve desire the first. One thing out a conclusion, there will be desire and version will be so weekend now that, you know, for somebody else observing from the outside. If They seem as though that they're they're not subject to craving at all. But inside, they will still be experiencing that, and that's what they're working with.
They're working don't overcome that. When they go uproot all desired and inversion associated with with the realm with the physical material world. They will achieve the third stage of enlightenment. As of being coupe. And is Who still has desire for existence. And still has the sense the inherent sets being. But knows that it's not true. They They have most of the time, a clear recognition of being of the interconnectedness of every. And when there with other people, they see these other people as has versions of themselves.
Right? And so there all you know, incapable really engaging you in any kind of or harmful behavior because between not having the comp of desire version, which is what causes us to do the extent. Not having that comp and at the same time. Having this ongoing awareness of the interconnectedness and and the same that's of you and all this. It doesn't leave room inside of that to engage in harmful. And so that's what the thing stage is like At the fourth stage, the final stage in R hop is defined in terms of dab as well.
The inherent sense of being separate self completely disappears and the person twenty four hours a day Dwell in the place direct experience of emptiness self, yeah such. That that that would be a person who's a the. Which means gone to such things. So can you clarify little bit what we by desire that word what do you mean by side? Like very loaded to different for direction yeah. Okay. Desire desire and version. Both are inner compulsions that come from believing that you are a separate self have that you're you're you're a happiness or your suffering.
Joy or pain are dependent upon what is not here, you know, the rest of the world. And where it becomes confusing is somebody people will often say with them if desire if you need to overcome desire then desi enlightenment is a bad thing. You shouldn't desire. Like. And That's that's what's that. Bridges diarrhea specific? Or... Yeah. To desire that everyone in the world be happy, that's still a desires must be bad. Well, that that doesn't makes sense. So it may makes sense semantic, you know, just in terms of the language that...
Oh, well, it if desires bad then anything that we described as the desire must that. But if you look at it logically, you realize... That's that doesn't make sense. That's not. The most important thing though, is until you become, or until you become a non return who is completely free from all the desired version to do this world. You have desired. So accept that, it doesn't do any good to go around pretending that you don't have desire because you do have desire. If that's the case, then desired good and wholesome thinks.
Desire, good health and take care of your body. Desire the well bang of your family and friends and do things to help them and desire and like that the highest... The highest desire is the desire to the become enlightened so that you can help other people or accommodate. That's the highest desire. And there's nothing there's nothing wrong with that kind of desire. It's only the desired to for things that g yourself that is... That what what if i desire and new pair shoes? If you... If you desire it in pair shoes, it's desire if you have...
And and this is that's a good example. This... You can You can learn what is the difference between us the desire and any good wish. If you don't really need a new pair of shoes, but you really would like have pair shoes faster. Or if you if you need the new pair of shoes. But you don't want those ugly ones or something I appreciate. You want something better. That's designer. Well, we give right. Okay. So you have some... you know, she who's at sandals. But if your reason for wanting, she is for the sink and your theme.
You know? Because the thing is you should respect your own body the same way that you would. Anybody anything else shake care of yourself. If if it is good for your feed, to have better use because the shoes you have worn out and they're not protecting your feet out, but the heels wind down and it causes you to walk in a away that creates that pain, things like that. Well, obviously, you should it makes it's logical and sensible and you can generate and and it wish to obtain a pair of shoes for the sake of your feed.
Likewise if you are if you are a professional person, And in order to perform your responsibilities, how adequately it requires that you dress in a particular way. If mind there might be exactly for the same kind of logic that well. Yeah. I mean, these shoes are no longer suitable there they're around fashion or they're stuff up and warren, can't be can't be refurbished or whether then it makes it's it makes sense to have an new pair shoes. But. And and you can have both things at once. You can have a genuine need for a new pair shoes.
And most of the time, what that's gonna lead to is a desire. So you have a wish for a new pair of shoes that is is based on very good reasons. But now fuss about which new pair mean you know, that's where the desire Now, that doesn't mean that doesn't mean you should go out next time you need a pair been pair of shoes, walk into the store and say, give me a pair so. I am gonna look just know doesn't need that. What it means, though. Is when you go in there, and they're trying on the shoes and you're looking at.
Watch your mind see call there there's the desire. Okay. Just recognize the desire this present. See how it works and see how it influences you. See how see how it might make you choose to spend twice as much money for a pair of shoes. Even though the other pair might be might your needs perfectly. But you'll see, okay. I'm gonna buy them more expensive ones and I can see why gets these the desire. Becoming acquainted with your desire until desire is gone, you want to be aware of it. But sometimes it's still kind of desired.
It's it's in your daily life your time. Like, I haven't designed to defend my opponent. That's a certain kind of design you you know, to press it you have to deal with it. So how is that compatible with the. So well i I'm not sure. Exactly how Sorry. You can go with this. But I would imagine... Okay. The the difficulty that I see is if you are lawyer and you're representing client. That your your job, your ethical responsibility according to your profession. Is to do anything you can to to win your client's case.
I I don't know how how lawyer deals that, money he realizes that the client is lying, I would find as cheating or early or. The case side defending isn't just okay. I I know how you do fact. Lawyer told me do want... Is The truth is only one truth. So yes. I be. He said no. Why. Let's say you he they'll give me an. We go to a restaurant. You often audio three times wheel back because the nadine before because the hook price is cheap because the restaurant was to your house because the the mood decorated which one Okay.
So the pricing is good how we go that wait? So tomorrow press the meter say the price real. You with sales hundred times tomorrow, what called the price. The day have you wait. Okay. I go back. Okay. So my is. I talking about desire design with meditation. We're talking about sales. We talk about. Showed some connection each among. Right? So contains. If we can meditate it to to make a super complicated process to understanding in the and the. And you desire based on it. Then probably is a easy brand situation.
Like the totally you go to record. Mh. Okay? First of all, I need to. To that. The result is on course and Secondary, that this improvement. You have with this case here with my money? Feedback see this way But I would find best I meditate I try best to to do. Probably, so only meditate. So this is very important question, you know, how to in other. Okay? But this is my another my original question. My question is the. Yeah. No true understanding ourselves. What to experience that. Moment. You think that the meditation is the only way or the best way because they have some other way.
Somebody say I turned red calls. They become both restarted. And no sales. We see more self. Life Riches it's very covered in real So society. Know they're doing cross was having a water restart in the seems. They are very happy and willing too. And very aggressive to it. Between them and minute. This is my question. Okay. I think back to your question. You'll have to remind new because I wanna go back to it. Okay. Sure. Okay. Alright. So Peter said, what about the desire to to think your opponent?
That's where you say it. Yeah i can hear you on. So What we need to do that's some questions. Why do you want it to figure your upon? Because you have tool people. Loyal to your current. That's your that's the reason why they they hide. So you want to feed your client. No. We have your. Don't you are loyal to your life. Alright. Why do you wanna be loyal to your client? That's see your profession? That's a reason quite a high so Why do didn't think why gave take? Yes Actually especially is far his.
You know that your client is right. You know, they are either innocent on the criminal case or they they should in at single case. Okay. So the answer to why loyal to your client is because your client is in a center your client is right. Right? They they they are entitled to their right. Mh. And that's the reason why you you're going to either defend them or to want to win their case. Right? So really, he started out saying it have desire to feed upon it, which doesn't sound like a very nice thing.
But then we got the place where you know a desire to to to janet your your client who is innocent or your client who is right said okay, which is a good thing. It's good to help people to d and preserve. Right? Yes. That's... So i ideally get every client that you ever have. Would be somebody who's either right or innocent? And your job would be really simple. Can that kids. You would always see your best. Often you would well And when when you when you win, I I in that this. That's sometimes that it makes you probably have more difficult or especially when they have that...
They even if they are artist. Right, but it is they have the kids. Now Yeah. That's a... I guess someone holding some some false evidence or something like that. Then... Yep. And you're... You you might lose the case even though the client is in. Right? But but my my real question is that Okay. How is the domino practicing going. The medication will help you would get the page or in that in that type of situation would that to give you more color like you feel more confident, you know right and judge yourself, how how does the invitation help you or the practice, heavy where would not be compatible with them those kind of situation.
Well, it will certainly help you to understand the situation better. Whether it will make you more powerful or not depends on what you come Understand. Because if you come to understand that maybe your client really isn't right after all. That would thank you to take away from their empowering. But if you... If it would empower you if if you came from this place. So well this is this they deserved to in this case. They in the right they've done everything that they should they've been. You, it it would be any injustice and a travis if they don't man.
This is very empowering. Gives you a lot of motivation. But you can... It well... I can see it would cut the other way too though. Just seem how meditation would. Meditation gives you the clarity of why. Meditation will You probably find to at in else you and your work. I mean, students find that meditation helps them to concentrate helps them to think more clearly helps them to on a stay relaxed on out. I would think the same kind of thing. You would, would help you to concentrate think more clearly Hi sure.
I only. Only thing I know about reuters towards is what I see Movie. But It seems like in is about this. One player is always trying to to Throw all the other lawyer. Like. Pulling some surprise on our or, you know, you do see that will be hired. So so anyway, you know, you would be it would be harder for another little later to throw you off balance to felt. Yeah as a result in medicaid. For the Japanese so, it seems like meditation like prerequisite, you know, that it enables them to to see clearer we respond with clearly and they get the feed opponents a lot easier.
So it seems like... Yeah. That's exciting half of the. Yes. Okay. So let's let's go back your question. And you have invite me Guess how. Yeah. Just say best is the best way to pursue the environment in terms of improvement in that needs. So best difference between the medi and, who only do such as the cross. Red calls. Difference between the medi. And only two such as because made made with the best wave. If we take example of somebody who does share the over work and and feels much satisfaction.
Yeah. Yeah. And together with that they been trying to live as virtue in life that it virtuous and life they can. And they feel good about that. All of these things can make a person feel good. And happy. And if they're lucky, nothing will ever come along to change that. Yeah Some people are just naturally more happy to have it. But The difference the meditation results and wisdom and understanding had a very deep profound level. And all of the things that make us feel good. Can't pass away. But, wisdom though, he can't live it.
That I think is is the advantage. You know, there a spiritual path of of service. And that is it is a valid and fact effective spiritual health. You can take out the practice of service and to know your like to serve it. I think when it's successful, it actually becomes a meditation as it becomes to mindfulness practice. Because if you devote yourself to service call day long every day, you'd have to keep asking yourself the question, you know, what should I be doing? What's the right thing to do...
How can I be of your greatest search? How do I deal with this person? So we get so being a meditation. I see that path the service can lead to wisdom of. And if it does, then it's just as good. As meditation, but it's form medication. Inform. It's apartment of meditation. If if you're all the doing good things in the world because it makes you feel. Something can happen to make you disillusioned. You know, and so you're vulnerable. Yeah. Right. I I think that That's probably going to be true. There's all kinds of ways that we can make our life.
More acceptable happier better. But unless it's based... And and unless our happiness is based on an understanding of the way things really are. Then it's... If if it's not based on the way things really are, it's based on illusion. And you're always vulnerable to losing illusion. So maybe I should change what I say. Not the meditation is the best way. But that that the that attaining wisdom of is the best way. And the best way I know of, to the tank who is not. Since Yeah. He is very difficult here to say the difference.
But I think the wisdom. It's very important. Total row narrow or a different speed between that. No. So you you have a least, probably he's not a difference between happiness and the midst. I mean, difference between them. The forty walk for charity. You still if you have an, it's kind of motivational. Right. Right. But i just code. People don't guys it. And until really experienced it. You said at. Alright. So, just Yeah. I I think especially for average people like us, You know, we don't have much time to get all try walk.
For india like a border or meditation probably, you can bring into the your daily scale norwegian support teaching maybe just like say. What do you think? Meditation can translate why is like charity more like You say you guys no. There's is two traditional chinese discussing. That we are brother My questions. There's a bit difference between them for pursuit and Wisdom. We can say we're talking about the, You're talking about the from, I think I will be to send. The key difference is the Wisdom.
Just means choose So wisdom is that when you say my fault where it is. That's the. My is twenty nineteen thirty eleven. So, right my is to... Understand the environment yes the final lens leads to leads to It's not the most important thing to help yourself first. And then know Well, certainly, I mean, get rid of your own file Yeah. That habits and attain some some ways can. Yeah. Have... Absolutely you should... you know, the the the more wisdom than you have the better the the more capable you are helping on the keeps.
And so that's why You know, the the the voting side goal achieving and light that for sake of all things. You you if you if you achieve your own and like, first, then you can help other people to become. That doesn't mean that you should do delay doing anything for anybody else until after he looked on the line. Because part of part of your whole spiritual path first the very first one of the pardon meetings perfection is the practice of generosity, which when you broadly interpret that, generalized savings all the different things every time that you can do for early people, the other people they like.
Giving some time, attention and affection physical help, you know, all kinds of ways to be generous. And this is a protection because move you towards wisdom and move you towards realizing the loser us of your separate itself and the interconnectedness of everything, the anti of the appear to parent separation of the world and to the. So on the one hand, the best thing that you can do for everyone else for all sentient things in the universe is to work strike diligently for your own life that That's that that is not a selfish thing.
That's the best thing you could do for all things. But in the meantime. Practice the perfection to the best of your abilities as a part of the treatment. So there... There was a story that with us call trying to killed him was was it he's i'm trying to kill him? Yeah. This cause cousin. And and and this cousin of his, you know, but breaks skills. So so clearly the the pyramid the virtue you know, it's not necessarily requisite to attain very very high meditation opinion. Oh, well, actually, that's not quite true David Downturn what is saying.
David doctor achieved meditation skills and he also achieved certain supernatural powers that came from meditation But then when he became jealous, hope buddha and became to file. He lost all powers. He lost those abilities at that. So when was practicing? He was quite a very his person? He at that until he b between Jealous. He became over over the overcome by jealousy. And it started off he he wanted the buddha to single him out and say, you know, sit on my left side here you're the weiss the whole.
And and it just got went downhill hill from there, then he wanted to replace the buddha he contacted tried to cause sc on the sound, by convincing a bunch of to leave the go somewhere else. Yeah that all they just got worse worse but when he lost the... That that green that desire cost them both his virtue hand his attainment. It's could pretty amazing that somebody who can attain that level of medication ability can can be corrupted, you know, so valid. Well, that is a... That's a really important teaching.
Actually. That's a very important teaching. And relates to... you know, last night, we talked about that and the knowledge everybody is and his side so You can reach state and meditation. Well, and summertime is the state. Your concentration your mind are good, which doesn't mean me necessarily practice being mindful. Right. But your ability is very very good. And you have joy tranquility and e. This is the tenth stage. Have They stay with you every day as you go through the world. So people see this blissful virtuous.
I mean, all the hindrances have been suppressed. They're not uproot didn't and gone but they're completely surprised. So you see this blissful tranquil economist power old medi, going through the world, seemingly free of all the entrances hindrances. And they appeared to be and light. But they're not. There's been no permanent change. They're dependent upon meditation to sustain that condition that they're joint. Hence to dependent upon causes and conditions and when those go away, they will refer it.
To being what they were before. What happens in this world? That kind of a person will can't become convinced that they are in length and convince a whole lot of other people around there that they're in light. And so they start i call. All these people show them all kinds of worship and attention. But this is the beginning of the away from their practice because they began they become attached to the admiration, the had duration or their followers. They like being the wise teacher. They fall away from their own practice and The hindrances which were only suppressed re and they began to engage in un behaviors.
The tranquility and e that they had fades and they began to become here to load and lose the temper, you know, And we've seen this happen. We see seven many tops in this country, many times in India, I think probably every country in the world. The people reached a certain level of medi they came my a mistake valve for the achievement enlightenment and leads them on out where you know, gay creates problems for and I think that's exactly what happened to David dot. Think David doctor is a case of somebody who achieved to certain low was stuck the level it entertainment.
I think you probably really didn't believe that he was just as enlightened he absurd to be recognized. And he deserves to have the buddhist all his stock. Sure believe yeah. But what happened to is he fell into virtue to any he lost all his medi in payments. Have he ever reach the first step of by nine? No. And he had... This what happened. The author of the power of now ec heart torn. Yeah. But he reached ripen But how about he he didn't go he didn't do meditation not Would he still obtain winston?
Well, can we say? I don't know he actually uses those words, but least I don't have any problem saying. Remember enlightenment, the book divided buddha said it happens by stages and he designed four stages. So it's it's not at all or nothing thing. And accurately achieved a degree of personal liberation. But if he had not continued on a spiritual path, and might might not have gotten any farther than about that first. I felt because he already experience there you you need unification and the the rear Mh.
Rear Me. I thought that in nine... The then he experienced switched notification on my unification right? Yeah. Case, you know, my post so experience the whole world united and he that was treated by ego before so he was south fashion. Okay. After he reached the certain point at that particular nine, I thought that mean this really been life. It's not. Well, i and if I follow you, I think that the what he describes being very, very impressed for so long. And then one particular night something happened.
I think he was enlightened after that, but I don't think he was fully aligned I think it was didn't to achieved the first stage and he achieved some stuff. And... When when you read his book, it seems that he's achieved a lot of this stuff a lot of understanding. And it seemed like it came It came from with m. It didn't come from reading books and things like fast. Adam. What I like about that, is that some people will gallo. They'll say, okay. We call this wisdom. Then it's not really true. It just all mistake.
If it was just a set of beliefs. And whoever read books, you know, might end up with the same I belief. Then if that was the case, then something he wouldn't arrive at exactly the same understanding. All line themselves without for books. So that's what I like to go. What happens with someone like a tool? It it seems to me you know I always look for people i who might be enlightened and try to observe them and see. See well that might that they have. And the impression that I got I about after I told reading in English the power of now.
And also seeing a number of Dvds where he's getting talks. So you You see him and you listen to and talk for two three hours. My feeling. Listening thing to is that and he's he's genuine. And he really hasn't achieved sound level or like I'm not sure what I love like much. I wouldn't say necessarily, that he's a boo out. But I wouldn't say that he is either just I can't tell. I would love to be him and be a person right now he tried to to experience that again, but he never made it Yeah. What, what what happened?
You're saying this didn't happen... I mean, he he do meditation before the... I particular night. Right. Then after that particular night, something miracle happened. And then he starts to meditate you to introduce the method to have the experience again I I believe lisa seen it. And but how about if he... If he didn't do he Okay. Well that is something That is what happens with on people. Human meditation. They will achieve stream entry the first model stage of enlightenment. And not be able to repeat that experience.
It's actually very, very important. To redeem that experience. Technically, there's two parts to the experience One part is called My and means path and the other part is called Pal that means fruition. And the experience is the experience experience of they're a very brief experience on their nirvana. Have the part of it that's called bog, which means Path. You would only experience that again when you reach the next stage of enlightenment in the next page after the next stage after. But the aspect of the experience this called pull, which means fruition, you really need to experience over and over gout in order to get to the next stage like.
So it's a very important thing to do. It's a very important part have. So when you when you had this initial experience of cessation of ghana. That has brought you to that that is the path experience that's brought you to the first stage enlightenment. You need to be able to repeat that to get to the Second state. If you can. And this is part of the problem. If you arrived at this by accident? You know? Yeah. Yeah and enlightenment is an accident, but practice makes us accident problem. Right? So if you arrived at the first stage by accident, you won't know how to repeat it?
And so it may be extremely difficult or impossible for a new to release the next stage. Which is another reason why meditation and informed practice so important because the whole idea is it's systematic ambassador the skill. Wherever you get to, you know how you got there and you can get there again. And then it continues that way. So that what does happen as people do achieve the first stage of enlightenment. They're not able to the provision experience. They never reached the second stage Right.
And people like I i totally reach it. You might call by accident, but then they're smart enough to learn to medicaid so that you can repeat again. So. No. I know. I asked. Actually i'll get the skip. Just the summary yeah. Medication is the means a way to to help you to understand the wisdom. You reach the day of. Yeah. Then again, consider after that they can still my ending and. But final questions for me. More earlier this. In the meditation. So experience the same michael when the kenneth stable store the quality or meditation So I think about it's probably is it recovery because we attention we too much effort.
We don't know. We still did not experience attention with evidence It has to be our. Yeah. So we still have was some way to go. No. So pretty school. Yeah. That explains was patience was error. I as used right yeah. Patient is. Get you. See just. It get you into the seventh stage attention after has Yeah. Yeah. Because it's... The experience more time I can one hour one hour hour a republic of about forty minutes. You see Because you stay in a stage. You was. Every ever. But sometimes we have a pe, but muscle cans have experience.
Occasionally so then do we explain why. What okay. People I Yeah. I I I forgot. But that there's another question that... Well, I this is the first time i actually meditate. I should like say the first time because I used to, know, come my breath when I go to bed. When I try to force live, then I cut my breath, you know? But right now when I go to bed, you know, us, couple days, but I cut my breath it actually make me a alert know I cannot sleep. What I would suggest is is instead of counting express, he just observe this sensation in your body.
I just chain it. It's very relaxing. Because what you're doing is you're you're conditioning your mind. And what your mind has learned over the last few days is, you know, when we're counting the breaths, it means that we're benefiting we're not supposed to fall through. Yeah. And there's an question that. When you describe with the chris, i I think it's a... It's not to to me. I I i I think it's not a level because it's a... Business seems like a path Now because every day, you try to make a wiser decision.
Now so people try to back myself a little bit wiser to a can't a wisdom, but it's a it's a journey it's a it's a it's a path. Oh. So I don't I don't know how to actually attend the wisdom. You can only make Because i well i what I learned is that to try to make of my web is that when you try to describe wisdom is that a status or it's a it's a path. You try to do every day to be... Why it it's both. Let's put it this way. It's a path in terms of steadily increasing mundane wisdom ordinary wisdom.
This is this is the wisdom that you want to have in your life. That you strive for that you're mindful the practice of mindfulness is gonna to help you to develop. You make wise decisions and you'll have more or more money mundane with stuff. They'll understand your cell better. You'll understand the world's better. You'll understand other people better. And you make better decisions. But how now? When I was talking about Wisdom, and association with enlightenment. It has a much more specific meaning.
Has usually described it as the super monday. My mundane means world. So i really with some having what mean and association with the lightning in enlightenment is is... Or super Monday. Okay? What that means? Quite specifically, is the wisdom of the ob obliterate race ignorance and the ignorance internet is really delusion. It's the delusion that things are really the way they appear to us to be. When in fact, they are empty of being the way They appear rest to be. That's just a projection of our mind and everybody's mind project something different.
And your mind will project something different next year than it does know. So wisdom is that the spelling of the ignorance that things are the way they appear to be. It is the spelling, how the ignorance that things exist. There there's a world made open of things. Because in fact, reality is nothing that processes. All these processes in they're completely interconnected, and it's only your mind that chops this and that makes it appear to be so it things. Have really important... The key part of the whole is realizing that the idea of yourself has a separate thing is just as much an illusion has the belief that things that everything else is the way it appears to be and that the world is made out of separate thing.
There has. There is. That's in Inside really. It's you're aligned idea a separate cell. What really, you are just the collection of processes probably of a much larger collection and processes, and everything is interconnected. That the last component of wi is the recognition that. Any anytime the sun part of this whole that attaches to the illusions called our appearance and of cell. It's going to expand summer. You say say. Any time? Any part any type of part of this interconnected hold su smith.
Makes the mistake clinging to the projections of the line. That it creates the experience of suffering. This is why suffering exists and the universe is that we don't realize the truth. And we cling to pollution the mine illusion and it across us stuff. I remember that the first day on the first evening you say that people attend to seed the award as a independent world. And the true how will you elaborate that net? Oh that would be to to really elaborate on that. We take a little bit of time, but the the underlying the underlying reality is that There...
Well, as I said, before, this this world that appears to exist separately and independently from from from yourself. Is it illusion. It does not... And it is not that way at all. So even that everything is collected, including yourself, might you want to send seven your own mind of that. That's right. Your mind is... In a sense you're mind is the source of the problem because your mind generates this reality in a particular way. It's a convenient way export. You know, to allow this this mind to feel as though if those the way things are knows how it'll operate in the world.
But it is it's based on illusion. One other way that you might think about it is I don't know if you believe in evolution. But think for example a frog. And imagine you can't really imagine him what a frog might be right. But I'm sure to frost mind possesses some sort of view of the way of the world is. And if you could experience that, you would, you know, it would be so vastly different than what our be mine. Generate. Right? Yesterday, I try to read the cost. Try to read the out. Back. But the point is once you're able to see that how how mistaken a simpler blind view of the world is compared to ours.
Okay. Once you see that, Cal Cow view of the world or a Fraud view of the world is is so much simpler and filled with something misunderstandings and there's misconceptions. Now, I'll imagine a you years from now i assume that the human mind keeps on evolving. So that it becomes as much beyond what it is now as we are beyond the frog. So that's just once again, I Fine. We might have this con conceived to say, oh okay. You mind really, sees things the way they really are, you know, finest minor route.
And and we we really accurately understand that world we have science i was sort of thing. But I'm sure that you can follow the the... The thought of this. That A being whose mind was as much that's developed as much beyond ours as we are beyond the frog. Would have the same view of our with would see our world do as being. So so simplistic, so distorted it. So i'm untrue, that would be ridiculous. So absolutely no reason to believe that what your mind this reality or what human binds projector reality, is necessarily a kind of accurate representation.
So we are good here. The way perceive his illusion. Now that doesn't mean that there Nothing exists. Had a a mistaken way of understanding that sometimes should hear people who don't understand how say. Empty whole means said really exist. Totally. Calls in the decent. Yeah. It's... What we're saying is that how you perceive these other the people that illusion. They don't really exist the way you perceive that to be. Way. So you can say we perceive Chris, we are here as. But What really means is that we are right here is a wheel.
But tomorrow, body gunner service. No. I say right now. Say right now. Right that off it's an illusion. Call the one. Part little is that has that chris and hire different from each other. That's solution. Does it? But it seems it seems like there's all of these there with people here. But that's not reality. Suppose true and false. I mean, surely that there's a lot of similarities and fall beyond and there's it I think it's both truthful at the same time. It it's not either right or wrong. This both is right world.
Well, the way to think of it is at the level that our ordinary mind kinda understand. It's true. It's true that there are what kind people in this? Parallel accepted individual. That's relative reality. But all of that reality is that no such thing as the kinks there are different people here. Can you up okay. Yeah. Because if the end it's ultimate sense is not true. And and the relative sense is true. You know, if you are watching a movie, and the relative of blood with the movie, certain things happen.
But in the all sense, it's just the story of this made up and actors is pretending. It's not it's not really true. Well what we can say based on the knowledge of improvement cost condition and the. Right now it's do. Yeah. Need all the knowledge. We are real. Yes. That's right. Good with without. Yeah. Reality with without like without that aspect of wisdom... We are. No. We that we we we. Okay. We can see. Have there is there is a stage that sort of have between his probably. You it it's still It still looks real but you know it's not good.
It's real... Yeah. It looks real but you don't believe it. Right. On track. Yeah Because he just know there. But he just knows. Yeah. He's just just Is looking at himself a mirror. That's the way they practice. You know, It did interact in the mirror. So... Right. Well, what like... I really, you know, cut the rev in half or whatever whatever cut to one pull it out of that. It always really everybody knows it's not real because he knows he knows what he really did. So there is some place where you still things still look real.
But you know they're not. Because like kinda like the matrix. Like which the nature. So we really make. Yeah. Yeah. As fact that's one the think that I I liked about the movie the maintenance is that... It it really raised these kinds of questions. What is real, you know of course. You know, the movie... Everybody saw the matrix, the Movie matrix? No. Alright. So well I you see update. Well, then person shouldn't talk about it too much. Usually i wanna to see it. It's all about. What's your. It's not real.
It's this whole world that's really a computer simulation and and the main character of the storage thinks he's a real person in a real world. Until somebody brings him into realities actually, his body is a asleep, floating and hi. And there is a a jack connected into his brain and all world and everything that he follows happening was fed into his brain from a computer. So My louis... He was a part of the police. Pat. Yeah. And in moving, you know, of course the reality is that all of the people in the world are just sleeping in these positive their brains are connected to this computer and the computer is creating a whole world.
So he gets out of it and he and a few other people are outside of this computer simulated reality. But of course the next thing you learned is, how do they know that that's not just another of computers in related to validate. Okay. But anyway, then movie then the matrix is is a good. And and it's it's going to give you a chance to think about how things could appear to be real and. But then ultimately that sense to be different differentiated that. Yep. My my understanding of of the meditation practice is kinda like a rock in...
You know in the beginning. You gotta be currently guy use a lot of effort guitar rid a lot fuel and then the further you're away from the gravitational pole. The the less field you have to burn, But then, you know, from here, what you're saying, is that, you know, you can enter Jana effortlessly you know, without going through the process of, you know, gl the different defense stages or the rocket. Because for me, it takes a lot long time like they said there for a long time. And then on the first page kinda burned out and I can kind of he's the second stage and he takes a loan.
Right? No yes yes true. Right. Yeah. Good analogy, With record. What I think about that analogy is that it goes faster and faster and faster. Farther you go, the faster you go more rapidly than the ebay progress. The first few stages are the most difficult take the longest time in the most effort. And then each stage after that goes a little bit more quickly a little more easily. So what that sense your analogy is right. I think you were referring to, you know, I I said, that there are people that can't suddenly find themselves in an advanced stage.
That's the down just like that. But. But the point is that they find themselves at that advanced stage on one isolated occasion for a short period pack don't know how they got there. They're still go through all the strangers. I'm talking all bit the the skill to really into the genre There people who can deal. Just wondering, you know, what is the difference between... Because in between somebody with skilled versus so of the. Don't let's the imp in this. Miss Somebody who couldn't answer John I easily have compared to somebody who had it at least them sent to a child.
Not not not not really accidentally slips into you the Genre of somebody will have to spend it a lot of times here buying the line. You know, he takes a long time to have a small piece in China. Somebody just join media. Well, that is the way somebody who can enter on easily had to go through to this... All of the preparatory stages. So they had to do the purification the line. And one farmer and another. And typically, what happens, you know, that's like, I did the john retreat people in Tucson in January.
And it was really successful people were able to answer Jon in in just a. And then But then they started to complain that... Well, they can't can't do it anymore, you know, or they find it a lot of harder do. And that's because I had boost. But they still... There's still the basic word for enough to do it. So they haven't taste that it. They know they know basically how to get there, but they still have to do the work. Well, I... Yeah. I'm I I wasn't explaining myself where clearly like like, typically when I have to enter into a deeper state right in the beginning, i have to do a lot of preparation, you know, how to do a lot of, you know, better meditation.
You raised their all men and penetration maybe for half an hour to, you know, do do... You know, it's basically a like a certification us that takes a lot time for me to eventually gradually care like maybe as small piece of maybe a elijah. Yeah. That... That's exactly what I'm talking about. You know? Yeah. You you have to do it and maybe it takes you two hours and the time is almost done a by the time you finally me reached out. But in indeed doing that, you'll reach the Jonathan center and center until you reach the point where you sit down and and you can enter on a few images.
Somebody somebody will that enter the channel id if this is present brain she was. I mean, a quality that does this person process has. I mean, this person has some sometimes special quality that we need to develop to. But... Well, it's a combination of things. I I mean you need to be You need to be living a virtuous life, That's true. That's part of it. But a lot of it too is skills, skill, you know, knowledge of how to do it and training the line. So that as you say, you sit down and might take two hours, then after a while hour and a half an hour becomes shorter shorter than what you have to go through it meets the same client.
You know, i have if I if I did if I did a series of guided meditations with some people all are any reasonably good. What I i've discovered when I discovered last january I can get probably a third to half of them to experienced John oliver period, but two day course weekend. But I'm really... I'm really boosting that lot to be able to do that on their own and be able consistently, they have to do a lot of work workforce. Exactly the kind thing you're talking about. And if they don't set enough time aside i not trying to do that.
If they only set aside an hour and date to work on it, and they need to put two hours to work in to even get a small pace to John and they're not gonna get a small pace to chime. So it's a combination of thing. Virtue is practicing mindfulness on a regular basis. Is day is part of it. And doing... Doing it and developing he spills solve. Sorry you probably don't have my job. It's it's a very deemed state was meditation where you?? Completely that's correct. Too. That's all it sounds like the word Yeah.
I here I. She. Yeah. J a and they and then was another state state... They ten. There's it's sustainable beyond John There are jobs. And then there's state Beyond John. It's called the cessation of dealing and perception. And it's also described as being they're nirvana without remainder. So nirvana that is experienced at the stream entry in the other stages of enlightenment. It's called their nirvana with remainder because you you experienced nirvana for a period of time, but you still have body in the world which he returned to.
And in this cessation state, supposedly your body is left behind. It's it's like what happens when a Buddha dies, that's the kind of nerve. I have i I haven't practice that. What a teacher hasn't reach... He likes and building he's practicing then then the the department when be so depressed. How how does a student tell the difference between somebody just great skill that John on versus somebody who's really like to help okay distinguish, like, a real teacher shirt versus good. Like well, that's what I was talking about earlier.
Somebody noticed reached Basically, somebody i you're just describing as a person who is intense stage meditate inside. The the violence are completely the the are completely suppressed. Mean you can't you can't tell what difference between that person at like being. Accept. Have you lost them over time? And they have to keep being able to maintain way to sustain that. And if they stopped its swift and right. And although the are suppressed, the of lost and green same to be able to grow up yet pretty easily.
And that's that's what we see. That's what we see in these teachers Who everybody thinks is labeled and they have these big following and is that everything false prep. I have to take advantage the opportunity while we're still together. This is great information. Just wanted for those us, you know, living with families, you know, just late may monks, by saying. It's hard to... you know, when you're reading about the John, some people say, oh, you have, you know, basically sq yourself in the forest and not talk to another so and then, you know, other sale, different things.
So is is it possible for us to you know, access the first order? Like we develop sufficient skill. Yes. It's definitely kinda definitely possible. And and there's different different degrees of a different different depths. But even even the deepest genres are accessible to household. Given that we have sufficient skill and whatnot now, you know, but it's something we can we can work towards. Okay. So so students who who did channel a workshop with you at all. Household with you know, boundaries.
They were all household with families and... Yeah. Like. Yeah. Well, that's good. And that means so we all have a chance. That right.