Joyful Stillness – April 20-25, 2011 (6 of 6)
5 day Easter Samatha-Vipassana Meditation Retreat
Upasaka Culadasa at Manzanita Village, California
April 20, 2011 – April 25, 2011
“When the mind is uplifted by joy the body becomes all tranquil” – Buddha
Audio Parts: 1 2 3 4 5 6
Joy plays a very special role in Buddhist practice. The spontaneous arising of Joy marks an important stage in the progress of meditation practice. Meditative Joy, often referred to as rapture, is one of the Seven Factors of Enlightenment taught by the Buddha. It is also a factor of deep meditative absorption. Joy is distinguished from happiness or bliss, with which it is easily confused. Learn how to awaken joy, so essential to the spiritual life. This Samatha-Vipassana silent residential meditation retreat offers extensive opportunity to deepen your practice through alternating sitting and walking meditation as well as instruction, personal interviews, Dharma talks/discussion and meditative movement sessions.
have last opportunity to talk and ask question. I know Chris questions the audio correct. We discussed the approach We confirmed this situation. That's approach... What approach we near to minute to getting inside the detail the sample sensation and the... Finally if you try not. You realize experience the evidence in that. Even we understand what the improvement i the but when you really my experience is there five. You were causing you another frustration field and war because it is so different with you real realize.
So my is the augmentation it's to to to to be free. Own those. Po frustration and laurie in all to enable yourself. Mh. Could you more do explain more detail about how to free the experience you know, any kind of seems got cocoa three of video war frustration when you really meet. Okay. Yes. Real walk Oh first of all, You're right. When you when you have when you have a direct experience of emptiness and a permanent? It's very un unsettling. It causes fear sometimes person will feel literally as old the ground disappeared on it underneath time, like the following.
What brand post. Well, I I'd say the most common... The most common feeling is I kind of fear an uncertainty. And very often, so the first thing that happens is the mine just jumps back from that. Then it disappears. And but you're really intrigued until you go back to it again. Okay. Mind job track. I might have... That might happen several times. I had... The feeling, yeah of fear and and frustration. Yeah frustration as part of the frustration actually ripen into a kind of surrender. It's like.
This is this is very frightening, but there's no no other alternative. I mean, even you jump back time, you still you still know what is there. And so that like I say, it it that matures into a kind of surrender and acceptance. It's like, okay. I can go back. The only place I can go far. But the only place I can go is forward. Can. There's no going back. Too late. And it is it is exactly like a situation. If you can imagine, Maybe you're being chased by a tiger you come to the edge of a cliff. And There's nothing think to do a jump and do you work and you can't even see the bottom?
But but you have to jump. K? Or the way I think of it because if you run edge of a cliff and you jump, who knows what happened. You might... You might die might be injured whatever. But in this case, if you have you make the leap, you become liberty liberated. So why I think is that's why what maybe if you make the leap, If you if you if you make the jump, It's it's like instead of falling, if fly. Delivery. You think that you for it? But it real right. That's right. I I think, you know, reminds me of how just.
What like for. What is it like for a burden when the first time I gets kicked out of the nest. It doesn't know how it's never flu. That's that's another hollow outlier thing, but about the very kicks out accent it... Well, wow, this is fine. So so when you're talking about probably is the... This is normal action. The only thing is to in a field. Yeah. Goal. And the test. Mh. Elaine? Oh you just falling you. That's right. And has i thing that she's caused spear. She says... I feel about running.
Probably. Sixty I sometimes... But but in that situation, your real being probably will tried, but your fresh bean is going to oh and it down. Right? No. No all. Well, and we in which situation? I mean, that when you are chased by category and about the yeah Busy number. K. Yeah. It's a it's it's only an analogy. And it's only a comparison. Because like that that phase in the daily situation as well when you in, you know, confirmed or situation that, you know, your robot probably won't have a peace.
But your fresh bill must fucked. But but you're you you real... You you're real self, know probably you try to have a piece of I have a different kind of... Probably in the peaceful situation, but you are in the hand situation, then you have no choice. Right? Right So so how how you deal with that? Because you cannot... It's not compatible. Well, I... I'm not sure why you're saying Peter. In the situation that I'm talking about, And you your yourself guys die. That is really what happens. Because yourself is the illusion of yourself that dies.
Because there wasn't really a cell. Great. And that's that's That's why you're flying. That's why you fly or this wife flying happens. Right? So I'm I'm not sure why what you were saying. I could go back to the... You're you i you that if you are chased by a type. You will are already ordinary a tree on the crib all the tree. Yeah. And that moment there's a one one. Yeah. It's a there's a there's a one you see when Cherry appeared You probably enjoy sherry at that moment. That's right. But after that moment, you have...
You still have to deal with the situation either you cover out it tiger and you cannot. Well don't me now you fall down. That in in the in the realized situation, you're either gonna confront the tiger you're gonna fall. But the difference in this case is that you need fall and you don't have to confront the tiger. Yeah. That's the difference. And it's very for. You know, an after afterwards. You you feel it's very very happy, really light, very free. And anything that happens, you just... You you see it from...
But it really is instead of getting caught up in all the ideas that you would before. You gradually gradually go back to being more like you were before, but you never. And never go back complete. It there's a period of view euphoria out there. You know, what I mean, you euphoria. Happiness. Very joyful happiness jeff. Ecstatic. Yeah you say that experience in Improving. Similar to expand of near this experience. As a matter fact, yeah, it's very very similar to that because And and there's a matter in fact many people say that this our weight is like dying.
It's like you you have to die to be really free. And it is by dine. And then people Something similar happens when people you know, they're they're medically debt, but then they're able to research the tape and they come back to life and they have the same the same feeling. Like, they've already died, so there's nothing to worry about anymore. And they're very they're they're very joyful, very happy and they look at like very differently. So near death experience has very much in common with that.
And it is... Well, it's yet your attachment to yourself that dies. The the fear that you feel at a very deep level that you're not really so much conscious of. It's just you feel the emotion you're feeling motion and it is. It's the fear of death. Your mind, your your mind is reacting the same way it would. If you were going to jump off the clip, if you were about to die in mind reacts the same way. But Then when you go through it, though, do you applying instead of something horrible is something will happen?
That's the difference. Yes. So. I just confirm. Know we know forward will be no go will be fired know that mh. So I wanna come from my then. That we reached the point. We reached the point. So use the meditation for concept data view no attachment. And financials. My our and prop accept mh. Or situation frustration everything. Just. Right. That's right. You sure. That's right. Okay. So so this is this our is correctly. Right. Correct. That's right... And this is... You see this is described. And yeah about this experience.
Has a series of stages and the progress of insight. Okay. And the states where you are confronting emptiness that permanent. The technical name for that is the knowledge of solution. Knowledge of dissolution of everything dissolving. Okay. But yeah that is followed very quickly like what's called the knowledge of terror. The feeling of terror arises. You know, to. Yeah. K. That's follow immediately, by what's called the knowledge of misery. That's you realize no going back going forward. Right. That's followed by knowledge of disgust.
Discuss you know, hopefully... Yeah. Frustration what you call frustration? Right. That's followed by a period where you you reflect and accept. Okay. Okay. Knowledge of I believe it's called knowledge, knowledge of reflection and knowledge of determination. And when do you accept with the knowledge of determination that's the determination to go forward. Your overcome by tremendous piece is called a knowledge of e towards formation. Right? Yeah. That's we... This this each this just written Had right now that I'll I'll send it to you.
Because there's a knowledge of towards nations. And then that's followed by what's called the change of lineage. That's that's where to actually go off to answer the clip. Right. And that's followed by the path moment and fruition moment. That's where you discovered that instead of crashing of why. That's exactly how it's described. Okay. Yeah. So... But you... But you recognize that you recognize these things that a person goes to. A person can go through these stages very quickly from this solution to pass and fruition in a few minutes.
But very often what happens is people get stuck had a terror and misery and disgust. And, they can go on a long time there. That's if they don't, if their meditation hasn't created joy tranquility and if they don't already have those. And if they haven't already... Meditate in such a way that they have you know, you have these little experiences of realizing that sometimes there is self. And you already are coming to realize that not having self it is not the terribly frightening thing that it seems like it would be.
So if you have if you've had those experiences already, And if you have joy, and tranquility and, then you can go through these stages very quickly. If you don't have those things, you get stuck in the terror and the misery and discuss. And sometimes what happens is somebody will give up, you know, you back weight. The the the classic example that they described is that it's called the rolling up the Match stage. A person will be in retreat in a monastery. And they'll quit the role amount leap, they'll go to a find restaurant, to find a woman, they'll indulge in all the sensory pleasures, everything to make them forget, but they just come through.
That's the that's what happens and you can we're talking about backing away from things. That's that's the backing away from it. And that person might spend years. They might spend the rest of their life backing away from it. Or, they might... Hopefully they might realize that that, okay, well you know, all these sense pleasures, you know, alcohol, things like that. It doesn't really help because i've already been disclosed to the truth. And I have to go back And then I go back and and practice and do it again.
You say you will to go really quickly, you say need a cell. To go through it quickly, you need to already have a a good understanding, of no self and emptiness. Okay. Right? You've already thought about it if in your meditation, you've already discount. Have to fail. If as long as here this kind of profound understanding. Yeah. In the street straight need, the companies are with, we don't have to have any fear about it. They mostly. That's right. As well... You still might have a feeling a fear arises, but it doesn't last very.
It's just... You it's just the feeling. And then, you know, you know, right? Here just correct near to have understanding me of and. I want intensive. So the the the thing to go through quickly is to cultivate the best understanding you can of the meaning of no self and the naming of event emptiness and practice in your life saying that, no, yeah. No this is an illusion. Yeah. There is self. Yeah. This is... It's just the way it appears to my mind, but it's not to way it really he is. Now you practice that.
And then if in your meditation, do you have joy and try, you'll come to this and you just you know, let's see it's not a terribly different difficult thing at all. You still will go through all the stages, but they're only, you know, just like got. The fear will arrive, but dealing up hopelessness, resignation surrender. Is basically according a blah variety this. You understand that it is and comment through our guest to. Okay. Anyway, please my questions. Ready. When come to the understanding of the entities and by sense of our observation of the outside or over your.
Well, the the the way that this happens, first of all, you can think about it and understand it info intellectually, which is which is a good thing, but it's the least valuable. No matter how well you understand it intellectually there'll be no liberation that comes from that understanding me. You know, that... But if you have that intellectual understanding, Then you can apply that and you can begin to have experiences, both in meditation and in your daily life. Where you recognize that this is really true.
Yes this is really true. It's still you know, it it's still the thinking mind is at at that level. But it creates a a stronger deeper understanding and prepares. Yeah. What what really makes the change in you is when you have when you... When you are totally immersed in the experience. When you suddenly find yourself totally versed in in imp and mt. That's like... you know, I you don't know what a good example is, but what I think I is We all know ours is round. Right? But when we're out there walking around, it looks like it's flat.
And when we talk about it, we say hold the site rise over there it goes across the sky and that's there. We think in a way, then intellectually we know it's off. But we can't changed the way that I might thinks about it. But when an astronaut it was out a space, because it totally you know, they have a direct experience of it the way it is. And So it's gonna it's it's gonna change something deep detail. And... I think what what somebody told me is that airline pilots, have that experience too. Because they fly high enough they could see the curve the earth.
And so they come to a point where... You know, even when they're on the ground walking around, they no longer... It no longer seems like they're in a flat world. They they never forget. It's really around world. So the effect of these experiences is to change your understanding at that deep. Because it is a direct genuine un changing experience. So the intellectual understand much easier. But that lays the foundation laser foundation So then and the next day will be touching. Mh. But because you you understand the countries and also impairment.
But therefore, makes step catch to go to that stage. That's right. To every day. Need to need to credits every everyday. That's right. Well, you you need to build up a better. And as as the has your understanding become stronger and you begin to have more and more of these experiences, you keep that momentum up until it brings you to the full the full awareness. So so would you say that in next you and the will eventually, change concept in mind. Mh. It eventually changes changes the way you're buying works so that You just don't see things the same way sorry.
Says change my wall in the right direction. I change my wallet. Immediately. Right. How i we a wrong expectation. That's right. Right. Sergio you my what, you know right. Right. Because you've seen how things really are. There is There is a a popular story that children and our culture like to like to enjoy. Maybe you heard of called the wizard of oz. Anybody know that, sorry? Do you know that, Story? Okay. It's about. A little girl a tornado picture up taste straight into a different world. Right?
And and the world called us. And she wants to go home. And so there's this wizard really powerful wizard that she hears about. And she wants to go and see the wizard and asked the wizard to take her back to her home in kansas. So she finds the place where the wizard is this huge kinda palace like you know, very very ornate. And she can't see the wizard, but there's always sounds. And she... But here's this loud loud voice saying what do you want and everything else? And they're very impressed by whole, this is such powerful wizard.
Can grab my wishes. She has weather or her little ted to also got carried right in that darn you. Right? And While she's talking to the wizard, the little dog to runs up grabs the corner of his curtain pulls it down. And she sees behind the curtain It's just this ordinary little band bolt head, pot valley, talking into this machine, i make this big role bringing the voice. Right? So it's, like, what she's seen behind the curtain she can't ever go back to believing that there really is this magical wizard.
Right? Impossible doing back. And that's the way when you see the way reality is? You just you can't ever go back to believing the illusion the way it was. That's the that's the kind of change that it makes. It's not even like it's a magical process. Because just knowledge and understanding. And once you have true knowledge, you can't go back to an ignorant away the same thing. The the the. Right. Right. So is the meditation is that dog see the... Yeah. The the the dog is in then that's one of the one holidays piece should have.
I don't know. Is here the point. You keep trying to. You want to understand boring. Oh what's? So when we talk about... Go select near intensive understanding experience of the and yeah. But if this is so called pre perception. So called the the very please please the of keeping the preset reset bay payroll, you said? So I heard this not through an knowledge before. Bad very you research. Or the value pre. So how is this so far very kinda Well, i I see a. Okay. You talking You live when all time just When people describe the experience of environment, they feel like, they you oh in one unification of...
I mean, altogether. How the... I did have been got an idea all the time. Like how the time can be unique can even, you know, your vacation I mean, do we we live in our current time and time is also erosion. Right? Yeah. And so something I don't know. I just said that here about the description of about... Hot. When people experience the lord enlightenment. Mh. That's what when people have experience. You know, the the mind stops literally the mind stops. Consciousness remains but the my stuff. So there is absolutely no sense of time.
You you cannot know whether it was one second or one hour. You just you know, because Well, the the only way that you could know is if... Just before it happened you looked at the clock and just after it happened to, look at the clock and you might make it guess, but you that internal sense how much time is passed is it's no no indication. Because there's nothing like a time machine, like you can go back good. The future... Not that i don't. No. Still time machines. John would you say that keep the moment or right nine.
Being... You just say there's no mind. Yeah. Now. So a space business a time. That's. Yeah. We... When the mind stops, there's no sense of space, and there's no sense a time in the normal one way. There's no sense of time at all. The center there is a sense of It's not really space, but and nothing nothing. Nothing big, you know, just... And as if it was infant, space but it's not quite the same thing as very. No thing does. Well, because I read some of articles agriculture that Three thousand years ago, he was attending the put.
You know, they. Was staying. Mh. So that's means that particular model there's not time and intensive sort of call it lose. Well yes. The in and Get that moment. You... You're yourself, you're separate individual cell. Kind of disappeared it's gone, which means that you're exactly the same as everyone else who has have that experience of the self appears. It's just there's... They have self, you'd have no self, you're both the same at that moment. What in your your that application does with one aspect, there's one way that to explore between it's perspective awareness.
If try to explore like between the and breathe note. Yep. Well so so when you where say that is that that mean exist between that pressing and brain out, So no. It is so actually to me because I I... Know before I attended at this some augmentation that you know, just spread even though... But even in the medicaid, it's a breath and press since a cycle you know, that this nothing exist between. Mh. How how how I can probably improve the skill or like how you because there's a... In those ten stages, know you always describe how to use that back awareness mh how do I do that?
Mh. Well, to if you... First of all, coming to the ability to be able to see the space between the breadth and the outgrow twenty and Ham. That is that's a process of increasing the power of your consciousness. It's like exercising a muscle looking and looking at looking closer and closer and refine it more and more detail. And there's two things are One is the first thing that you experience is in that cycle, there's certain points that you can clearly identify. You can clearly identify pretty easily to point when the end breath begins.
It's the easiest thing to identify. It's the strongest sensation. Right? You have that experience? Dynamically exactly. And you don't have that experience. And when to see the experience that I have and that... I think most people have yes. The when the breadth begins, they impact on the skin of the nose of the air is is sharp, and the area is cool. And the the movement is fast. And so it's very noticeable. I probably did it, but I just did not pay that close it in. Yeah. Okay. So that's what I say.
You want to keep playing closer and closer attention to these details until you can see that point really clearly. The next easiest point to see because the point where the outbreak begins. When the air turns starts to come out, not as strong as when the breath begins, but still pretty strong easy to see. Then You know that. Before the breath begins, there has to be an end to the. Right? Like, that seems that that case at the same point. And before the begins there has to be enter the breath. So that is the next question.
Can you see that point? Kinda is it the same or is there a space in between that two. And so you keep paying attention more and more closely until you know the answer they find the answer. He's dead said? The the answer is that there is... There he is a space. There's a pause that So you... So to begin with... You can get to the point where you could see the beginning of the breath. The end of the end breath the pause beginning of the and of the a, the next pause in Then starts Over. To see all of those very clearly.
And then you could begin to see sometimes the pauses are a little longer, sometimes they're a little shorter. And you can compare them the end to further develop the power of your mindful awareness or power your conscious. You could begin to ask questions like which is longer the pause between the end and the breath or the pause between the and the embryo. And your watch hood and you'll find an answer there. The other thing that I find in some people want is before your meditation is very deep. The pause between the breadth and the is short and the pause between the a and the breath as long.
When your meditation becomes very deep, and the breath becomes very shallow, very light. It switches. And now the pause between the breadth and the after is the longer one. And one between the out man breath is very short. So you want to develop that level over? I'm somebody you can notice they think. In the... You notice whether one breath is longer, than the last was. So you remember the last breath and say this this one's longer, this one's shorter. Than the last run. At the... Further, you can go to examining the sensations that make up the.
And they're not all the saying they change. It it starts out the the the the sudden impact of the air and the cool are very noticeable, but then you find it it slows down and that because the probably because the skin of your nose is cooled down a little bit from the air, the air coming in doesn't feel so cool anymore. You notice that change. In the course of inhaling, you'll notice that it's not completely smooth that's sort of there's a sort of a jerk us to it. All of these things become apparent after a little while.
And so that's that's part of what you want to you just allow that to develop Okay. Is Jam have anything to do. The channel has anything to do with meditation? Is a part of state stage or medication? Well, John, donna is a particular kind of meditation. There's a form of John that you can do from the sixth stage there's another kind of john you can do from the seventh stage, the kind of job you can do from the eighth stage and then there's a kind of jonathan you can't do until you get to the temp stage.
Each of these genres are more deeper and more profound. But the are... They are a type of meditation and of upsell. And they are also an inside practice. Because in the, you become more and more withdrawn from the senses and the body and the world. And your awareness becomes more and more completely and awareness of your own mind. And so if you do the John practices in the proper way they provide really profound insight into imp and and so forth. So they they are they're very powerful way. Developing insight.
So when a a person learns to do to do the There are eight different levels of John. Although The first four probably the most important one. But the second four are also useful to but The first thing you do is to practice until you can consistently enter the first job when you familiar with how then you go from you go for the second john and then the third and then the fourth. Where the insight comes is comparing What your mind is like before you enter the first What your mind is like in the first Janna, what your mind is like when you come out over the first time.
This this brings a certain degree insight. Then you do the same thing as you enter the second gen, the third Gen and you see what you you're actually looking to see what is present and what is absent in my mind before And go into the jar. What is present? And what is absent? Why I at to child? What is present and what is when I come out of the genre? And so it's this investigation that leads to insight and enlightenment using the Join. And at the time of the buddha, if you look in the sutra, the Genre practice was the main inside practice that they did.
All throughout the procedures are always talking about John. It's a very, very powerful practice. So... But it's... You know, like, we we're doing a meditation on the grill and I described to the development of ten stages using that. So when you get to the sixth stage, you can take a branch off and do a a very light form of from the sixth stage. When you get to the seventh stage, you can take another branch off and do a form of china practice that is still late but not quite so late. And and so on from the eight stage.
And then finally, when you get to the tenth stage, you can do the deepest kind of data of all. I had a good meditation this morning and his... I think pablo that because yesterday they heard about the turn of China. And I know I was in the job. So I like oh I will say that. Can't you to just Yeah. I just don't I thought that's a different feeling different experience. Yeah. So I didn't know what that anyway was get more deeper in the meditation. Yeah. But I thought I was The what's the child is is...
Has the most powerful kind of concentration where the medication just totally fills your mind and there's no room for anything else. Now depending on how deep your Johns is, if you're at a sixth level john it, you can still have some thoughts in in the background. There's still some thoughts come up. But as you as you go to more advanced Genres, even those background thoughts disappear. So if give what you experience you had this morning. Was it John. I could've have been sound like it might have been a first first Genre.
But you said, while you were in the Vagina, you also have thoughts about how long is this going on. So so that sounds like if it is a Honor, it corresponds to... It's the kind of johnny, you can reach from the sixth stage. If could John has started with you are, it's a sixth stage of education. How could you have general crash of held for the people who didn't have meditation experience. Well, everybody, everybody that I have and the John client has meditation experience. They did have education experience.
They're all at different levels. And what I did is I guided them with guided meditations over a period of two days. Helping them to to go deeper also so important part of it was we did a lot of talking So they understood what the Genre was what what they were trying to do. And so then after I finish describing something too them, then we do guided meditation together. So I said, after see you talking division is very important. Yeah. Okay. We go back. Yeah. The question I. Yeah. So You you mentioned again that again, the the best way you know is to also to experience the and empowerment.
Necessary pseudo a meditation to experience debt, which is the in and. I think you pay this or. Every day everything every day. Probably someday you will ignite and rewrite. Yeah. The news. If you... If you practice everyday understand again, Yeah. Apply. Is no what? Well, you pretty like, a meditation where You see seems comment. You see scenes and entities. Yeah. Ar. Else sentiment. Well... There's still that difference. You could become very very skilled at seeing and understanding. Of that. Everything is empty.
We have probably. You can get to the point where almost all day long. Everything that happened you know, the the the thought is there in your mind. A hot, this is empty two. And then you can you can see how it's empty. I think I have... So the meditation can let you keep all way. Yeah. To maintain the stable status what you need to do to really to really give this powerful effect to your mind? You need to not just be a aligned observing that things are empty. You if you... As long as as you are observing that things are empty, It's still ordinary mind.
Okay. Okay. So somehow or another you need Need that you need something to take you from the space how observing that things are empty to being empty. To moment when you... Yeah. When when you when you become empty, that's that's the experience. Otherwise you were home off on off sometimes those. Right. Okay. Because we use effort to a patient. So we i very much them our quality augmentation is and good. So I just think about why we... I'm know associated with the quantity meditation. I i i I think it's probably when we the real why we use ever is because we have I'm having show expectation inside.
That's right. We have... We have expectations. And we also have a believe that we are. We have to believe that we are a person an agent that we're responsible for doing something. And so, you know, we have this expectation that we're going to do something we're going to make it happen. So we have omitted middle bit. To see why. Put Right? Understand okay. Mh. Right. And what happens in meditation is that people will get to the point their mind is so well trained that they don't need any effort at all for meditating her, but they'll keep making accurate.
And they get stuck at a place. This happens in the seventh stage. Okay. The seventh stage person we'll get to the point where they don't need any more accurate. But it's the hipaa. They're still thinking effort, and they'll say, you know, my notation used to go so well now it gets stuck and just get doesn't get any better. It's just every day. It's exactly the same. I sit here, my attention stays exactly on my breath and i think happens, but doesn't go anywhere. And what done what. And now then what what they need to do if they need to stop making effort.
And when they stopped stop again. Well, nobody explained this to me. So I tell you how it happened. Okay. Okay. Okay. Spears. I didn't know this in advance. Nobody told me that what you have to do is you have to experiment what stop making effort before you've been discovered that you don't need effort anymore. So what happened with me. I was sitting in meditating and I had been for quite a while in this place where every meditation was the same. Really good meditation like mind didn't water dol.
But it was getting tedious pbs because nothing, you know, wasn't making any progress. And i was meditating one day. I there we're I think probably two or three flies. So I'm meditating it atlanta and crawling how many face and in inside. I'm not observing my breath. You know, they're going in and out my nose fly. Exactly essentially. That's cool. I'm determined, okay. I'm gonna stay completely focused on the sensation of the. And there's this talk about making effort just powerful tension. There's the the feet of the fly and the movement of the air.
And I'm gonna stay with the movement of the air and ignore the feet the play. Okay And I was doing it went on. I pete karen remember exactly. Must have gone on for, you know, at least five minutes, maybe ten minutes. And like I say there were several flies. They would come and they go. Every now in, that would be on my face. You know, had be waiting and sure not why to come back. But what happened to when my They left. I was waiting. Waiting. Kept focusing on the rep, but back of my eye kept expecting why.
That who. And the hell I came to the point where, Wow, they're probably not go back just totally let go. I had powerful Pt pto at and and i discovered what effort was concentration. So Also you cannot it but you just have don't. That's right. You you know what why have already already done all work? You've already created the condition to everything else then you just have to the electoral. I rephrase my sentence. I don't have christmas better you kid that. Make me the habit. But you can ready it to that's to get heater table.
That's right. You can prepare and we're there. And this is Yeah. That's right. We're ready. You really. Mh. Is a minute. Really. And it will be heaven because we are ready to make the heaven. Right? That's right. So what kind of experience after the set stage. Yep. Well, I had I had really strong Pt and they everything and I I basically the eight stage during that negotiation I had really good experience and the hate safe. But I'll tell you what happened is it I had to learn till let go, because even the next day, when I went back to, it's still like you say, it's unconscious.
Isn't an i a conscious, and I was saying, I wanna do that again. So I'm trying to do it. But the day before I didn't do it. What I did is I stopped trying and got out of the way, and it happened. And so I had to learn. I had to to learn to be able to do that. But then You know, I I was able to do that and then I was able to go from the seven to the eighth phase consistently. But this no Friday coming back. Skilled. They don't need for the clients. They don't need to find that. How they needed to fly so one time.
If i we're we're to crawl to my my nostril rates, and so not all beta is gonna Something. Planning all I'll star meditating. I hope up you from from i'm going and if no applies. Well, I I knew the fly weren't interested in going inside. What? Think some pretty. Well so and then you try to push the air out? It go here. No. What what I... The only thing I tried to do is to completely ignore the flies and pay attention to the sensation the. That's thing I do. I need her. So now what I suggest the people, when I talked to somebody, and I had sounds to be like their meditation is at the stage.
What I encourage them to do is just try letting go. You know, you you have this thought that you need to be vigilant And if you stop being vigilant, some thoughts can come your mine's kinda wander or you're gonna get the or something like that and what is. Okay. When you when it feels really stable, just quit trying and just see if it could happen by itself. And what I compare it to to help people understand and say, can you remember when you first learned to ride bicycle? You got on. You're busy doing all this.
Right? But there was a point when you realized that it would stay up by itself, if you just kept them, you didn't have to didn't have to keep turning and and and worrying about it. So it's it's it's like that. It's... You stop trying so hard and you just let it take care of itself. And when you reach... You reach that central stage where you're having really good stable meditations, but it doesn't seem to be going anywhere else. That's the most important thing to be working on is just let go and see if it will just keep on going by itself.
Tell what the maximum time you do meditation i each time? Other some maxima. When I go ahead retreat, I very often at meditating two to three or four hours at a time. Right. Yeah. Have... After, you know, maybe the first couple of days I'll follow schedule. But again, I'll start sitting through the... you know, see a walk in the next all in one line, you know, our whole top interruption. And i'll... So on a retreat, I on a laundry treat, I'll usually done doing a really long in the morning along in the afternoon for sure.
And in the evening, most of the time in retreat know the teachers always like to talk you all listen to norman talk.