Stronghold October 31
So before we meditate, we usually do some question in azure or bit buzz and talks. So I was wondering if anyone. Has anything on the mind that they'd like to talk about or here's or something about? You talk a little bit how the mah fits into meditation where does it... The blah. Mh. But it's a kind of. It is actually is a kind of meditation. It's a dirty... It's a very light form of meditation that you can do while you're doing other things. It's just repeating, repeating a mantra with each b. And then usually also keeping count the number of cycles.
I I don't have one on my model, but very often. There will be two strings. And mh each time you go all the way around your advanced one string one bead. And then when that string has gotten around all all the way to the other side, then you'd... That's the second string one b and start over. And in this way, you can accumulate a large number of repetitions as a matter fact that in the cognitive tradition, you would be expected to do this and and batches of a hundred and eight thousand repetitions of the mantra.
So in order to do that, and sharing them all around with you and every time there's, you know, a time that you can do it, or sometimes just to sit and relax and be fully present and and do the moment. So is it is a light form of meditation that just helps to get your mind in the habit of maintaining a certain level of attention and organized. Some people attribute. Significance to it in the form of the power that they match that you repeat has and so forth, but I'll leave that to people who think care that way to go into.
Where your mind of other thoughts, you know, you're just... I know puts flu into in altered space of if you do only the the mattress, yes. But if you'll notice the way most people do it when they use Ama kamala is is they'll be using the all while they're also their mine is also occupied with other things. So, you know, and... But even even in that, it... It still still does serve to help anchor your attention somewhat. And gives you a little more awareness if you're sitting there carrying beats in A guatemala and you're listening to somebody and you start to feel angry then.
It it's kind of reminded at well wait a minute. You know, I have i this right doing two things at the same time that are completely compatible with each other. It very useful sometimes they're doing a walking meditation and and and using and setting the mantra at the same time to sort got me into this space of of the repetition and from the mantra not having any particular meaning that mh that I know just the syllables the same struggles over over again. Does not rule for other things to come in that way.
Right. You know. It's the distract occupied your mind so that you're not don't start thinking about what you're gonna do next or oh what much Yeah. You'll find in those countries that devout late people often carry mo with them and all kinds of different times. You know, when they're doing other things. So be that be inside in monitors as well. And some people you want time of playing with. With a man from Greece who had never flown on plane before. Mh. He was so anxious. He had big Amber beads and he was even was just using those b, there's kind a pair protective prayer or something, you know here's a man from Greece.
Mh. Mh. Well, i I don't know if this is true him but the greek garth at Ice shirt. Just like the counter you to just pray or reuse this prayer beat, and it's interesting a lot of people do call them worry he needs. Wait when you figure where ready to your word needs. Spell. Can. Well, I have a question about... This the self that or the non self that is aware, and it's it's difficult for me to think of it of a no cell when feels like there's something that's aware of what's happening in or that's making decisions or let's you know, it's I'm just confused about that.
Oh, well, I mean, there is something that's aware. I mean, that body in mind right now is aware. Right? But it's the idea that there's somehow something other than that heap of atoms and molecules and that that mental energy that's that's taking place that that this awareness resides in. You see that's our mine tends to want to. Deposit that there's something other than what we are. And and so the Buddha said, you know, that this is the real cell. Is the five aggregate. That is the itself. There's no self decide.
So the the single permanent eternal rein this is the self that he said to when you look, you'll find none back there. But, yeah, something's are weird. You aware. I mean. You you exist. It's just that you don't exist in the way your mind imagine that you might. And you are aware something's are weird. Awareness put it this way, awareness is happening. It's... The whole problem is you really can't you speak the way we normally do and make sense of this. As you say, if I say, well, you are aware, in that word you is the seed of the very idea that we're trying to become on cash from.
I say, I am lawyer or and it it's awareness this is happening. This this fight aggregates this manifestation of his has this unique property of awareness has do all kinds of other manifestations of business, lizards and and the beetles and the birds and everything else. Have awareness that. Not only that. Not only does awareness manifest there, but something else manifests as well that we would call consciousness. And this is where this is where our attachment really gets strong is that, well, not only is this body aware of things and responding to it, but there is this subjective experience of being conscious of bad awareness.
Yeah. That's fine. Kind. Welcome Nav. And so You get ask your question over again and say, okay. Well ask your rushing over again in terms of consciousness instead of awareness that. Why did these five aggregates have this subjective experience of knowing things? What's what's happening there, what is that? Well, I'm I know we're struggling to not see everything is out there. And still, it appears to be out there. I mean, if this is this... You know the same thing that because we... We're not and enlightened, we are in the subject object Mh situation Mh.
Where we're subject and there's the object. Yeah. And even... Oh, and I say i. Am doing something. I see myself as is. Is a subject doing something out there. Mh. So that's the thing that's that's you know, I keep asking you. I mean, I keep talking about this over and over again because it's a difficult. Onset. That's right. It it it is difficult. It's even more difficult because we sometimes pick up ideas along the way that are misleading and and we have to set aside on misleading ideas. So this this that I'm experiencing and that you're experiencing right now is an appearance in your mind.
The particular kind of object that you perceive this as, doesn't exist, except in your mind. Your mind has made it up to account for the sensory experience that's happening. And An interesting thing about this is that we can go a step further and say, okay. It may only appear to be the kind of thing I think it is. But it's still a thing of some kind isn't it. And the answer is that, well no. Buddhist back in medieval times realized that there really can't be any such thing as things. And modern physicists and modern western philosophers have also kind the same conclusion in that that thing.
Is a reflection the way our mind, all that there is is process, and our mind takes the process and creates things. Okay. Now so if we recognize that, well, something's happening there. My mind makes it look like a thing, but it's really a process. It's not a thing. And my mind causes it to be a particular kind of thing with a particular nature because that's the way my mind worked. But if it's not even a thing, it's not even a process that has that particular nature. These are all things that my mind is projecting onto to this experience.
And then that allows us to realize that you aren't experiencing this thing as a thing in the same way, you're experiencing it as a thing just like I am. But you're not experiencing it the same way that I am to you. It's a different kind of thing. Because your mind can only it based on your minds cumulative experience and the way your mind works, and my mind does the same thing in a different way in a slightly different way. And everybody else's does it. So this sort of opens us up to realizing that this thing the way I perceive it only exists in my mind, and it will take some different form in anybody else's mind.
And because we're both humans and because our minds are similar, we can talk about it and we make come to believe that we see experience it in the same way. But the truth is that we don't really. Now where you can get off track is if some people will say, oh, well, that exists only in your mind. Which means it doesn't exist at all, and that's wrong. That... you know, your sensory experience of this happened and it happened as a result of causes. So there's a cause for the experience that caused your mind to perceive a particular kind of thing in a particular way.
And so you can drive yourself crazy. If you hear people say, well ant means that nothing exists. And that's nonsense. And no self means that you don't exist, and it gives high. Why do I feel feel like exists? You know, You'll drive yourself crazy because it's nonsense. Because it's not so. Such is the word that is used in the scriptures to describe what is. Such business. That is empty of all of the things that our mind projects upon it. That's empty of the things that that the stories that our mind makes up got.
That's what it's. And so we can call such and. But What we have to realize is it's the appearances is generated by our mind that don't exist. We're not saying that such. Doesn't exist. Does that make it a little bit easier to... I mean, your mind says, now can say, Alright. I can work with this. The idea that nothing existed just kept taking me some someplace where it was a dead end. I can't go any further. I same thing true. But okay. I feel like I'm a myself an individual self and I experience myself in this way.
Hear somebody telling me I don't this. So if I don't exist, who's having the experience? If I don't exist, then this awareness can't be happening, but it seems to be happening. And how to whom can it seem to be even if it's not happening to whom kinda seem to be helping. You see it's a It's a nonsense cycle. The white of this what the Buddha is teaching is you are not the self. That you are naturally inclined to believe that you are. That's as much illusion as thinking that This aspect of such is whatever your mind projects it to be.
Can we just ask you a question about what you just said this lessons. Sure. We're not who naturally believe ourselves to be. Yeah. So is it who we naturally believe ourselves to be or who we are conditioned to believe we are? Well, it's both. It's naturally though. We have inherited since a history of life on this planet. Biology has deliberately made organisms imagine themselves to be a separate kind of self because this is how nature works. So naturally, we we we could not begin otherwise, because being what we are.
We are internally designed programmed constructed in such a way that we cannot perceive in any other way other than this particular kind. We perceive ourselves as a hoop, and there is no who. But it's an illusion that this massive matter creates because it allows this massive matter to behave in a particular way. Basically, if this massive matter thinks self, this massive matter is going to by being itself means it's is separate from everything else. And so now this massive matter is gonna go around behaving in a way that finds ways to benefit it itself back expensive other so that it can survive.
And it has instincts to reproduce itself. This massive matter comes as you know with this instinct to do the things that cause reproduction it. And so because of thinks of it itself as a self and because it thinks of its pleasures and its pains as real, this massive matter behaves as though it's a who that wants things and doesn't like how they're names. And it protects it itself. The result is, there's a whole lot of other massive of matter that come from one like this because this massive matter behaves in that way, this is nature.
And it's built into. We came into existence as a result of this process and that whole process succeeded because it inherently perceives itself as a separate entity from everything out. If it didn't, it wouldn't behave in those ways. So So this is this illusion of self and that sense is a good thing. Because it's brought us to where we are. And even the desire and version and all the cravings that it gives rise to is a good thing because it's This beautiful world is the result of it. Both the different forms such mistakes in terms of birds and lizards and everything else.
And ourselves and and the mine that takes in what tiny little bit of such it can and generates the beautiful world that experienced. All of that as a result of this. So The illusion of self is an illusion, but it's not a bad thing. And the compulsions of craving desire and inversion, are not bad things in themselves. But the point is, as a kind of being, we suffer uniquely we suffer uniquely compared to other beings who are not as as conscious as we are. And More importantly, we're at a stage where we can take a step beyond the biological evolution of a massive matter, we don't need to be trapped within the illusion of self and the compulsions the innate instinct compulsions that drive us that we can We can't experience truth.
And through the experience of the truth, we can shed the illusions that have served this wonderful purpose for so long. And by shedding those illusions, we can overcome the innate compulsions that this massive matter came into being with. And we can achieve a state of of happiness and love and compassion and freedom from the kinds of suffering that come from being what we inherently are, That's an important thing too. It's a wonderful thing that we can do. You know, a deer can't doesn't have the ability that we have to take this next step in spiritual evolution.
A deer has lots of awareness. You watch a deer, has a huge amount of awareness probably more than most of us too. But it doesn't have the amount of consciousness that we do. That there's not as much of that awareness being illuminated by this cleared white of consciousness. We have this gift of being much more highly conscious than the birds in the lizards and the deer. And so we have a possibility that they don't. Their gift is that there are a lot of the kinds of suffering that we experience that they are not prone to.
But What they unfortunately don't have is the ability to go completely beyond all forms of suffering. So we're very fortunate we're very blessed to be human beings and to have this capacity. But where we're trying to get to is to recognize in a really, really deep and profound way. That we are not what we imagine ourselves to be. We are not separate. We are part a wholeness that goes beyond what are limited, what the mind generated by this little pile of matter is capable of grasping. That's our true nature is that they we are a part of the whole, not a separate piece.
And so the we the self need to discover is it, oh, I I am not this separate self. There is no permanent abiding thing that is me apart from everything else. Which isn't to say that just masks that that there isn't a a part of such that my mind perceives as a body because there most definitely is of apart such that this mind, which is a part of sac perceives as a body. This mind, which is a part of such perceives itself as a mind and it perceives itself as separate, but it's not So that's what we're trying to get to.
That's the no cell. When the self is gone, there is the unity with what is. And the body and the experience of the body are still reality. The experience of the body in the way we experience it just like experience this in the way we experience it is not ultimately real because with my limited census, and my limited brain and my limited mind, I'm not capable of knowing this as it really is. And I'm not capable of knowing this as it really is. But relative to what my mind is capable of this is real, and that's real.
It's just they're not ultimately real. And so that's the answer to your question. There is no who that's experiencing it, but the experience is real. And it is the relative form of an absolute reality. Times and the part that I don't understand is such this Well. I mean, I I I know it. Such as as I understand it is they come to a a a place for happened Fun in a while feeling completely awake and completely connected with with something that appears to be out there, but but I don't. But I just feel like it's on one.
Mh. And but I I don't understand what the sac is it seems like such is more an experience than a a mat and a stuff. I don't know what the stuff is that the debt can can be created with. Well the way mind, is constructed, your mind can only think in terms of stuff. And so your mind needs to make self consent to stop. And you can let it as long as you also make sure that your mind realizes that it's not really stuff. It's just the only way your mind can think about it. So do you think that someday will be able to to look at each other in here and just see some little such moving around and that that doesn't have any shape or form or color or anything.
It just just everything and here is just little little vibrating or moving particles. We we could. We can't. Although there's not much point in that, except as helping us to let go of our illusions. Far better to be able to look around and see this is all Such nice with its color in its form and its shape, which is actually such... I generated by section. So I... This part of such has this perception of you with your color and your your shape and your smile and all these other characteristics, that such is capable of projecting onto to sections.
So far better, I mean, it's it's good to go through the phase of seeing all of this dissolve so that I know that it's not ultimately real, but one of the most beautiful things about the fact that we are is that our minds do create this. So why not enjoy it? Why why would I... If I can... If I can know everyone and everything here as the sex that it is and still enjoy the color in the form and the variety and everything else that is also within the nature of such enough. That's even better. Right?
Yeah. And that's... So that that's the meaning of of Buddhist mine drills in Nirvana. Knowing the such. While the body in the mind are in the marketplace. So, you know, So we're really existing in two who dimensions that at the same time. And can just go back and forth. I doesn't have to initially you go back and forth. But we're moving where we in the going back and forth, we're getting to the place where we don't have to go back and forth. We can see that there really isn't two things to go back and forth between that they are both genuinely present at the same time.
Traveling through such. Like I don't beat out one. No. I don't please. Please separate. It's it's a another experience. I don't think of those things as so. It's would. You don't think of it as... Separate. His voice. That's the whole... It's more light. Yeah. That cool. Okay. Yeah. Although, it's very compelling. And you might I might want more and more in that because it's so cool. I don't like to think of it as separate. And that's the whole point it isn't. Sex has there is no separate. Was in session.
And there is nothing outside of such. Yeah. All the work that we all do to because of all that cool stuff, I don't know. To me it starts getting in the way for me anyone. It just starts getting in not to work. And and you do the work. I don't even like to call for. Do meditation. Enjoy each other's company and food and son and stuff. Know. I forget. So you're saying, just enjoy life and and know that everything you see everything you think something is not what we think it did. I think lack for me relaxing into a life.
Makes all the other cool stuff more of it. I don't get in my own way so much looking for I really like answer I like answers, but all that for me, I'm a lot more peaceful as total guess Let's say. I I don't these all the time. And I mean, I still suffer. I still so. Will, for some people, maybe I I have to keep searching looking asking. And I hear this... You know, I I go over the same things over and over again to remind myself. Nine myself. Nine myself. It is... It's like a colon. You keep going over things.
It's sooner later your mind gonna just have enough of it. And like go of that. Then that happens too. What does it seem to me Like you that we're trying to understand something that really can't be understood? So it's like, oh, that's try to understand as well. That's impossible. Is that right doing? Yeah. An another way to think about it it a little shift and been talking about such and we talk about sex, it sounds like stuff. But we could talk we say everything living in the same way. Instead of such we call it conscious, clear light mine.
And Consciousness keeps taking objects and the objects that conscious consciousness takes are all things. Generated by the mind. They they're not things that exist of themselves from their own outside. And so every time consciousness takes an object, it keeps consciousness from knowing itself. So we're trying to get the we... The place of realizing that all there really is is consciousness. And when consciousness knows itself, but then there can be no separation. You know, if we think of such stuff, then we can divide stuff.
But if consciousness knows itself, there's no place to to divide consciousness taking itself. As it's object. And and and the one advantage of talking about in that way, it is is very close to the kind of experience that people have, which is their mind stops generating appearances. And when and if they don't lose consciousness, if they remain conscious when the line stops generating appearances, then consciousness knows itself. And that's that is the way it's... It... That's the way the experience.
Is most likely to be interpreted after it happens is well, i i stopped. And there was just pure consciousness. And that consciousness is truth. Reality. God consciousness or, you know, the dis different words that that we put on based on you consciousness is a good one if we're thinking of it in terms of consciousness or universal consciousness because, you know, it those kinds of terms help to help the conceptual mind not fall into certain mistaken ways conceptualize. It all works really fine and and tell you feel like something terrible is happening to your body.
Yeah. Well, and that's in and then, you know, that's when this really can help. I think we realized this your body is just going through these process. Yeah. But the the mind, you know, the the mind was to to protect body accents so This is happening. If you you, you know, you've broken your leg or your or your heart is pounding rapidly. And and you think you're gonna have a heart attack or you can't you have asthma you can't get your breath, then, you know, you forget the whole thing and you're just like take care of me, you know.
I don't want die. Mh. So, you know, it's partly training yourself. To when you get into just kind of a panic situation of some kind that you can come back to these understanding. Right? That then it is helpful. Yeah. You see the mind exists to take care of the body. That's this whole purpose. That's why that's why it was created. Right? And as you say, You can think... Well, I understand this. This is all great until until the body starts to die until there's a pain in the chest, you know, or until, you know, Mean the thing is that that's the problem that with intellectual understanding.
And don't misunderstand what I mean by intellectual understanding. I don't mean a bunch of fancy philosophical arguments. I mean a kind of understanding that's taking place in the conceptual line. No matter what a perfect picture your conceptual line generates no matter how much you say to yourself. Oh, I really understand it. If it's being understood by the conceptual mind. It will disappear that understanding will disappear in an instant when the raw nature of mind is confronted with the raw reality of the body and it's again the mine's zone existence being threatened.
Let's go with all that beautiful conceptual picture and and you're left right back in the place you work. So the liberation comes when that knowledge is at a much more profound level so that it's... You know, when it's not conceptual, then you you don't lose it so easily. And that is the obstacle too is that your mind can't create such a pretty picture of understanding that it's really hard to let go of that and to take your understanding to the next level. And the same thing. You know, I want to be awakened.
I want to be enlightened well no eye can ever be awakened with has to be awakened is to be no eye. And as long as there's an eye wishing to be this to become this. No matter, how perfect your practice is down in every other way, it's that last barrier and as long as it's there, you know, as long as as long as this some some i some me some who somebody that's wanting something. You know, it's not gonna happen. This ain't thing so long as so long as you still cling to an a conceptual understanding of always truths and expressed in so many different ways and and poetry, and and other things like have.
It's still conceptual. And long as you claim to that, when, you know, when you get down to the nitty gritty of it, you're gonna still have that same experience. Gotta get get beyond it. And that's really in sense what all of this is about. You can even skip all the intellectual understanding since you have to get rid of all the intellectual understanding to reach true understanding, it is possible to skip that entirely. But when you've got the intellectual understanding, it's hard to give it up too.
Welcome. And that's probably the the other way that the attachment to sell goes can be through surrender. It we go through the stage out. Recognizing that self is empty and the perceptions are empty and things like that. Through surrender, giving up you know, a a being that totally believes in the reality of their self their soul. But who comes to the point of absolutely genuinely being willing to give that up and to surrender that. They'll arrive at the same place. So the good news is you're all already where you're trying to get.
You just don't know you're there. That's. That's that's. Or you forget or you have a you have experiences. I think maybe this is what's happening you. You have experiences every now and then. Both in and out of meditation where where you do know where you're but they don't last very long and and the line has the view of self that wants to be awakened, immediately comes in and says, oh, wow, the me, I want that good. Look. What and that's it's all again gone until her next time that happens. So I just keep doing it over over again.
So wouldn't be practical to try to recap this i I'm really start. I'll, don't Don't you'd be sorry. Hi. I'm sorry. Just, you know, it's recorded. I'll put it up on my website. Well, she's already heard it really good size. But, I needed a million times somewhere wouldn't I. Actually. I yeah. Well. No. You you do... And it's because we keep attaching to ideas that lead us down from. Stop reading all books. Stuff, you know, just be just be and be enjoyment and understand because I I do from these years of things understand that what I see is not what it is.
Yeah. But I hear it's not what is. I think everything is is something else. So taking responsibility for creations. Just being being happy, be joyful b b, whatever, being loading, being scared, the... Being d just b whatever being is, whatever the... Whatever the process is, whatever's is happening, is Okay. That's what's happening is gonna change. It's being with the maximum amount amount of consciousness that you can bring... Oh that's thing. You know. That's that's the essential part of it. Bit.
This is change. I had an experience for many years teaching physiology to undergraduate us. But. There would be something that was clearly explained in the textbook and I would explain it in the classroom, and then people would come for tutorial sessions afterwards since say I tried and I try I can't understand this. It just, you know, I no matter how hard try i can't get it. And after a little while, I learned and I got to be really good at helping students because I knew Was always problem is that they had some idea that was incorrect that they were trying to understand this.
With some piece of information that was backward or in one way or another, they had all the different pieces and information here. And every time they try to put it together, it it wouldn't fit or it would fall apart. And so what I would do with them is try to find... Okay. What's the wrong idea that this person is holding? Let's go through all the pieces. Let's find the one that is is wrong and will make it right. And then that will be able to understand and then they did. And then they get Oh, oh, yeah. no.
All the time I was thinking that Yeah he that with me. Both calculator he he was help try help me understand calculus what he had to take you back about. Third great. Yeah. I like. Oh wait funny. But I'm finding the same way. Same thing with teaching the dha is that it's because we get some idea we get some notion that we're so sure that we understand that piece. Correct. We got that idea. Right? Then we try to put it all together and it keeps not coming together. You have to go back and you have to find where the mistaken ideas.
You said something about quit reading the books The problem is, not all but most of the books you've read, you read are written by somebody who hasn't quite been able to get it all he'd altogether. And it's because they have some ideas that wrong. And so you can read an awful lot of books and not find your wrong ideas or even get new wrong ideas to get in your weight. The real advantage of reading books and listening to teachings and things like that. Can be to figure out where you're you're what idea you might have wrong or back or so forth...
The agent texts are still kinda Like to read. They're really good. But the thing is that's what a lot of the wrong ideas come from. Because the ancient texts are written for a people that lived perhaps thousands of years ago in a very different culture. With a very different kind of knowledge base if they grew up. And and not only that the words and phrases that were used in those days had special meanings and connotation just like the words and phrases we used that they do that we are not necessarily aware of.
Imagine somebody in the twenty fifth century, reading something written in the modern young person's vernacular about this is what you need. This is really bad. Back then, i believe they need to have bad things. You know? And you could be puzzled forever like that? Because you don't know the bad means good. In that particular vernacular. So it... It's really good to read the ancient things because at least you spare yourself a lot of the overlay of misunderstanding by people that have come later.
But the downside is that Well, you're still getting an overlay because unless you can read it in the original language it was written and you're you're you're still depending on somebody else's translation. But not only that, most of the stuff, the ancient stuff that's come down to us, has also been reworked and rewritten by people who didn't necessarily understand it perfectly. So it's difficult to find a totally reliable first, and then it's difficult even if we find a totally reliable source to know that we can reliably and accurately interpret it.
But that's all fine that's quite alright since all the answers are in here anyway. At all of the practice is about getting your mind to the place where you can see the answers. And now when you can see the answer you can go and read the book and say, oh got that went wrong. Oh, got that one right. That's what I were talking earlier. I was just trying to point out to you that you know, you've heard people say well, means that nothing exists. Well that's not true. And if you think that he'll never understand the truth.
And likewise, you... There is no self, not the kind of separate cell that we naturally think we are. That's what our biology wants us to think. So it'll behave the way we do. But, you know, I wanted to to emphasize for you that you're not trying to discover that you don't exist because the you that you think you are doesn't exist, but something exists for sure. How about just saying a prayer that I want to be or please. Help me surrender to the will of the universe. Please help me see help me in all everything I do.
To be in harmony with not my ego statistical will, but will of whatever the larger is. That that's sort of the conclusion that I to. That is that's the path surrender. You bring your sense of a cell up as strong as you can. Oh I deal like I am just real wanting suffering cell and make it as real as possible. And then surrender that. Not my will, but behind be done. If it be the will of a, I give myself totally take me do with me as you wish. If you do that. Can't hold anything back. That's like it from all.
That's a path. That is that's a valid path and let's to do that. And make, you know, make your sense self as clear and real as you possibly can because you want to give the whole thing up to that which is higher. So you don't wanna hold anything back. And it is... In the moment before the beginning is complete, it is very painful. It is it is the experience of the depth of the self because if you give of yourself and your real, totally to something higher. Totally, Then it's as if you die. Has this discussion then have interest or helpful to you?
Well, why don't we take a little break. You might well. You don't need to so much quickly. Everyone else has been sitting here. So stretch your legs a little bit and then come back in about if you need to use the washroom, you can. But in about ten minutes would begin on meditation.