The Mind Illuminated archive

Stronghold August 15 – Rites & Rituals

Automated transcription

what exactly to buddhist say about rights and unreachable? We buddhist said. I mean there that's a stage of enlightenment was right so much. Well, the thing first stage they enlightenment might wanted to things integrate you over overcome is. All belief and the efficacy or power or rights. Which isn't to say that there's no place for rights of rituals. But it's rather that he should You know, the... What the buddha was trying to communicate is that when you become awake and you realize that simply residing words does nothing.

If you actually recollect something, and if you use reciting the words, as an aid to recollect something then the recollect of something does do something. But words and actions at that time the primary religious practices were the the rituals and there were very many them they're very important And all of the emphasis was on doing the ritual exactly correct. It didn't really matter what the problem was thinking of or what his intentions were if he thought the person who paid him all his money was a totally jackass, but since he was paying enough money and do, you know, that didn't matter that was quite acceptable.

His all power was thought to be in the rights. Debate was saying, no. No. No. Both things. Have no power at all modular their own. So there is a place. For ritual activities as an aid to intentional metal processing. And the form of buddhism so the pharmaceutical follow i supposedly leave upon the do the series of teaching. Keep the rights and rituals to absolute as a matter fact this year. This is of your original buddhism. This is the entire ritual. There was never any more than taking pre and taking records.

I was all. And anything else with sage could be, you know, slipping into trap bleeding in the power can't font age. I thing. To... There is a place for these very simple things. Not for, you know, maybe not for really any of arrests in this room, but maybe but I'm just saying in, may maybe not, but there are other people. For example, Going for refuge. It's not very well understood, and it probably should almost always be explained. Should be explained over and over again. What going for res paints because it's it is so simple.

It's very easily misunderstood. But it's what sets secular meditation. Meditation for the sake they becoming capable of being richer and being happier and worldly. Right? Of apart from meditation or the purpose of or the by achieving or something. Like that. Parking liberation for select right. No I don't need to go into an explanation for you again what? It means when you go records reach to related the dot on, but if you just reflect off with that, what you already know that means, Going for records is saying, okay, there's a reason why I meditate with something that it leads to and that's what I'm trying i'm not just trying to become call and happier more easy going the same thing with the pre so they are a means to an end.

It's not just that I'm generous to other people then I will be then I will create the circumstances for. Me to be more happy and prosperous send my life. It's going be... It's it's going beyond that simplistic i e theory worldly, do you tell to give a basis to your practice that goes beyond? So I think there is place for. But I'm I'm not terribly convinced there's a lot place for there's a lot of value on rights rituals beyond that because it become so easy for people to get lost. But people do, like, chanting mattress and, you know, people like to get together and things the face some field.

Different. Yeah. Sounds they have some a completely different effect. Mh. Which is part of Feeling group. Right? I think the feeling good a chanting together is more of the social family bonding kind of thing. And I think what you're talking about is like a real deeper, you can access the deeper space within yourself that has nothing to do with sitting with other people. Well, that that's right. Good. Other meditating or other people seems be more powerful full than that rating by yourself. Any champion with other people does.

But there's there's two different kinds of chanting. There's a oh, that's chat because then we'll all feel get that people we get together and be happy for and then there's... Well, let's champ to get into an all state and Alan as you wanna join me on that, it would probably work better with our giant processes that sec. So while you're saying that true. So but but there are these two there there's these two different ways that people use champ. People don't people don't champ as a way to get don't they always chant, that a way to get into.

An altered state of mine so that they can use that all state of mine to for a higher spiritual for purpose false, and that's the in itself. You know, it's like, why. Let's get in the all safe line to together we have a good time. We had right. Short. All in the. It's all in the intention. That's right. That's where it is with all right credentials. It's all be intention. Just thinking about churches and singing him. U, you know and it's a... That's the social kind of we god a word they've got words to them that are very their kind no words.

And you can take them on two different levels. But you can take them on the level of being and and so the worship and and the meeting of the words, or this is something that that you really enjoy your day and it's fun doing and and all its. You know, I don't I not Christian. A lot of things Christians we. Don't have any special significance to me. But nevertheless, I have as much fun as anybody else. When much people start singing gospel songs i had over words and I can say along. It feels good.

It makes a lot but think you like very really simple. Or specific you were leading what's your question, Or no. I and I think that we've I've been in with this kind of back but forth thing, you know, about it. Having having them just all my life steam something that that I like about scandals we know like haven't like have cameras. There's something something said something that clear yourself like channels get place for you where it interior or what just getting out of years day revise. My life and.

Then that for too from know what we did by the time. It's always it's great. When everybody gets together this the way. Say these words. This third feeling that some the air to collect fit. Much well I got news to this one, over years since start doing that over here. And and it at first, i I was didn't quite it so much. But no. It needs to it orientation. No think me know. I I I kind of like doing that you've believe that. This set the safe of the state. Or here we are. Altogether and was special day that we've said aside.

And it says it's just like one, and somehow, we feel it always makes you feel good. He'll, you know, sure choose something you could try conversations and reading books and all that stuff part of restraint part of yeah I really want large I think so the page. And this for people are pretty advanced But we sit down, don't say i'm Un meditate. Think I'm gonna manage it. Just doing it all. Not. So do you know sense special thing beside. They don't think now and what meditate that statement has not lot.

So I'm kind of trying to bridge between these things. The place where I'm not not that advance but I but I could see that folks get to, so maybe go between there some maybe help it maybe it, you know, I don't know or you Well, I think it is a help. I think it's very important. The things were like, what what we're trying to do here. We have a group of people of all sorts of different backgrounds. Degrees levels of personal commitment and understanding. Okay. Is very important. I think I agree with Buddha that it's very easy to get lost and.

On the other Hand, I also think that you do need something and like I say, especially for a mixed group of people different backgrounds. To help them to add space there at make a distinction between their ordinary daily life and their activities and what deep come here to do. The whole idea of and a post time date is that late people set this day aside and make it different So doing some kind of doing some kind of ceremony to mark that, and that's all this is is like i I know it takes less than ten minutes do gets.

But if marks it. Okay. Now now we're do... We're being in a different way we're doing something different. That this is not workday. This is a place talk to. The side of that though, is that you don't wanna get second or where you'd like to get to be is where every day is post topic. Know and light the mud practice. So it's not gonna sit down so. Okay. Now I'm got meditate, but all over the time you stay here that fully present awareness. And so So there's these two sides to and and they're both true.

Which is really... It's what I started out saying earlier that I see the there's a place for this. I see it is really important. And I do see that if you bring too much. Ritual like that into or if the is itself becomes too appealing and attractive and to explain it. Do you run the reps? And it is it's just the risk. It's not it's not there's something it makes it absolutely undesirable. He do run both risk of losing society of what the purpose of sergeant sacrifice. Richmond The problem is is when you become attached, oh, I have to do this.

Problem is when you become dependent. I can't... I mean, we really want to enter into these specials space with consciousness. At will any time and to be able to remain in under all kinds of circumstances. To be dependent upon w candles and chanting certain things and having all of stuff like this. Becomes an impediment to being able to enter into that into the state of mine water need to enter into under early circumstances and creates a dependency that could potentially keep you from being there all over time.

So it's dependency part of it. And it's the attachment part of it. And it's the also I guess maybe it's the same thing but it's getting attached to the good feelings account and and beginning to do it or its own site. Because... Yeah. I mean, even as simple as, oh, I feel good about myself today because I did my ritual today the way I'm supposed to. So therefore, you know, if get myself a gold star, feel good about it. I mean, that's not what it well. Just had this hysterical cartoon after my head while you were talking about why didn't candles and ringing those before I go on Facebook.

You know, because I think that what what you're just talking about right now is is kind of what I'm actually really working on, which is being more and observer being more in the moment, just watching, not reacting or watching myself reacting, you know, whatever. So that I'm at add attention, not in a soldier kind way, but in I'm living i. So that everything that I'm doing before I start you wanna pay attention to it so that I'm as much there as I can be, whether it's peeling apples or taking it back or out cat box, you know, daily stuff, but Coming together to me reinforces me during the week.

So I know. It's important that I can also live without it because I have for the last month. Right? But it's right rituals and all of ceremony back ditch quotes. They're useful and valuable tools. And so we don't we don't want to. Lose tools, but we want to use them intentionally purposefully, only why we're using it. I think that we're using that off wait. And and so then meditation is tool as well. So that's what we get... So that's when when... you know, the address says, you know, you're not sitting down to meditate moments it's like, it's pulling away that reliance on the total of the meditation.

Is that just go with what is? Okay. To practice smart Ham, first a person will have gone through period developing stalin. Summertime if this they need too. So they will have already made use of the tool of setting a aside times and focusing all of their attention and energy on behaving and being thinking particularly right. Is saying, okay. Done all that work. You're ready. Now it's time to that go that and like go that limitation because it limits you okay. Now I meditate and Dean, okay. Now I'm not indicating back to tomorrow.

Oh. Very so. Scott. Yeah. But that's just right for an advanced practitioner and it It's fine for somebody, you know, like we started at the spine for somebody like ourselves, we're committed to the practice we are what doing to we can intentionally and purposefully say... Well, we might do the rash pre ups. As tool because So they they'll be helpful, but we can eat really well say well. You know they do no straight. So we can but that girl. It's not necessary. And and that's that's really a good place to be.

That's the right place to be. And that's that's sort of where I feel like I'm coming from when people here on Sunday. I want to do something. Intentionally and purposely and hopefully encourage them to do it in the safe way. To help them. To to make this tool available to them to recognize it, okay. We're doing something differently what we were doing tower. So And and so when I during the baby But if if I choose to do the directly pre. I've chosen it partly for that purpose. But since I'm going to do it, I'm not going to sit here think about something else in mouth stories, you know mentally and bad take the opportunity to remind myself of what aiming of what word are.

So that whatever you've decided to do purposely sleeve for one reason you continue to do an fully peasant purposeful meaningful rate. You and said repeat Some of them don't have anything with big news, some that other things that they do. So risks clear. And also the big x port big. There's so much debt with those threes that we talked about the time to chime, I think important. Oh yeah. I call it we can certainly go to that believe mind but she he didn't to think about you little avail thoughts and answered words and only thing.

Pills, both. Not rich? Cool. And that's really good the schedule at the time and also the part the first my i taking? Didn't go retirement. Song. You know, I didn't I couldn't get it. I thought with my... You believe this but a long time really understand what that was happened. And see were a red words not I needed it. That's right. These thing as simple as they are. Maybe these beginner things. They stayed important. I mean practicing the pre, when you're a fully like you blew it, I guess, you don't need to practice pre steps anymore.

But right up until that moment you do. They remain relevant there start at your feet. There's no point where you say, Well, I don't tell lies anymore part I don't have to worry about that pre. No. It's. Okay. I don't tell why is like a used to anymore. I for me to take it to the next level. Yes What's the neat level with meeting that comes after you stop telling those obvious wise? Okay. I don't engage in engage a divisive speech like I used to. But to what extent is speech thoughts still divisive and some about it.

Is always more to be learn not the practice still. Well, well, I think, you know, there may be any end in the complete and total of light. But there's no in shorter of that for sure. The other thing too is i just mention it, so There's a flip side to being attached to rights and rituals. To be the one and you can become attached to him ab become you can become dependent upon them and you can use up as an inappropriate use them inappropriately, just as a way to get my feel have a good time. Was a flip site for that too.

The optimum attachment is version. Which means that you can't experience dislike for rituals or dis, or disdain or can see or, you know, there's all kinds of other things. And and I sent through that. I've been through looking at listening to people's rights in rituals and saying, Oh alright it's silly nonsensical sensible basic what's with these people? Go up get the audio. U And and not that there wasn't element of truth in in and the what I was thinking because there was. You know but the thing is that wipes holding those into to, know what I come to realize is.

Oh, okay. I guess I've got smart teams to work on here myself. This is a form of attachment too. They only when you see somebody else? Using rights. If you experience a version or just disdain, that you've got more word to do stop. The only wholesome thing that comes out at recognized somebody else else's issues right is to ask yourself is there's some skill needs by which I could help direct them to more also Yes. And the answer maybe yes, and may no. But whether whether it's yes or no, I mean, it's yes, you do that about it.

If it's no, you just accept that without, you know without worrying in your own. I'm looking down on them for ignorance. The they do provide people in different ways. People are great. In candles or somebody boy things they do. If even like a Christine fe picture i'm a cheating that's right. Well, I would never think it. Put that picture up there. She had such an expression of the police just kind of out I thought why Well I mean just beautiful both it's... Is just by projection, but nevertheless, a nice thing surprised the picture and she but when I saw it, but you like that?

You do. Think something about what I know how she... I been in where arms saying and having was going to remind you of that sense of loving yourself. You know, that's you know, that's not rich. But but in a way it is. In way of it. What we're talking about the same. We can get to that central part of ourselves that... Yeah. Is okay. To technique me for example, somebody who every morning they get up and made ritual set up their alter, they feel all the little bowls and they clean everything up. And they feel really good about them.

Is nothing wrong with somebody making themselves feel good. I it it may be true that as we recognize that that has a very limited power. And there are much more effective things that can be done than these kind of David rituals. But that does not mean that to something wrong with somebody doing these things in order to make themselves feel better. At least for a little while. That was complete awareness every day that it's not just feel better. I mean, they could actually reach and enlightenment through that practice.

Yes. But the limited power of it what we speak of is is that usually, without a whole lot of other things going out at know life. That won't happen. What will happen is it will become more and for other mine was ritual after while we'll stop making feel circuit after a while though. But why am I doing? But but the possibility exists. Possibility yeah. Fall. Mh. And you know, what's... Yeah. Part of love for what they're doing. There there could be a proposed awakening. That action. Although it's... you know, I...

I must admit. Okay. I am very willing in anything from any of these traditions, but I have experienced myself that is asserted and happened. I remain open that all spill. Based on everything, I know everything I've done an experience in my life It's very hard for me to imagine that doing that kind of ritual on a daily basis is ever going to have out of. But I whole open the possibility that we can. I don't see how without wisdom, you can ever become threes from suffering at. I don't see l wisdom can ever be attained without.

Without all of the other ingredients, if you have to change the way you have to it mindful folder, you have to change the way behave interact with people, and you have to you have to learn how to use your mind in a way what allows you to penetrate the beyond appearances as to see things that you really are. So I don't rule out the possibility at Somebody betty. By doing rituals alone might sound. But I just personally I don't know how that. Be michael, you changing the kitty litter box. And it's like, you know, being completely present, but what is she being completely present to the smell of kitty litter?

I mean, she's being we're being present to our reactions, You know, is this a subversion? I mean, I'm just desi. We have this smell out of here or you know, I'm... I in numbers you being line from two states of Yep. Things that we talk about time. I mean we're... We the mind this exact just, here I am feeling the water on my hands. It's like it's it's more than that. If you're paying attention, we'll use the kitty litter thing at us. I had a really interesting thing happening and just, like, approaching it and doing like, I'm gonna really pay attention to what I'm doing.

Like I'm doing all these little experiments notes right to see how how where I am. And so what happened for me when I... This one time that I was doing when, I noticed that both cats were in the room and they were watching me. Was like. And so it it had a lot more meaning than just me it like, it brought in everything around me, not just what was inside of me. Because I could see that I wasn't the only yeah. Was changing litter. Yeah. Yeah. You know. So your reaction to the kitty letter. It's like, you know, changing a baby's diaper.

I mean, hugo feel. Yeah. That was like know very important. You know Oh. But it's like it's also pretty like watching orange No. No. Well, and was like, oh, there's desire version. You know, and and what you said before about looking at yourself scientifically and not really knowing whether or not if you... Is that Ocd or is it? You know, what's going on here? I I I think sometimes that. Using the idea of ritual. Is it coming from the outside or the inside? Is it something that we're that we're creating in that moment or is something has always been there door that the ritual might wake up You know so I think...

They... And oh. The whole idea of the ritual is to reveal the the inner boot nature. If that's what that's what you're pointing have. And and that's what I see. Often. I'm, like, oh, Yeah. That's familiar. I know that. I know that's... But the katie litter sad is a good a sure example. Or what I'm saying. And you're cutting now. And... Yeah. And you're you're absolutely right, but you're not saying something different than I am. You see if somebody's spiritual practice consisted entirely our with kitty litter ritual.

I mean, there's only unless you got hundred and fifty cats there's only so many so much time to spend cleaning kitty litter. And so if all you do is the kitty litter ritual, at these certain times that you do it. And if as deep as you get into it, is ever smelling the kitty litter and feeling the feeling on your hands. And noticing the aversion that you feel and things like that. That's hard for me how let's see we'll ever depend like i the other hand. Yeah. As I know, annie does we also studying in different ways.

Listening leading attending things and reflecting, thinking about this, thinking about how it relates not just to your kitty changing, but everything in their life all over the time. And also, cultivating a mind that is focused and aware. Not only when you're changing kitty litter, but all the rest of the time. And so the when your changing kitty litter, the awareness just keeps expanding and getting deeper so that you go way beyond how it smells and how it feels and where your emotional reaction is.

That's what I mean. I I you know, it's hard for me to see how a risk by itself and until it begins to and entail all of these other ingredients, but that it's it's fine to lead you there. So that's why I would encourage anybody Don't, if you believe that the careful and mindful performance, of ritual over and over again every day is going to bring you to enlightenment. Know did that by itself. I I caution them that, you know, it might not work. So what do you think about spontaneous happenings? Whatever that...

What what happening. Richard get make on spot. That she mean know you mean? Well, all of sudden have like, this all u. I didn't need so how. Well, that's it's that's. What I think that's that's right we... That's what we want to ahead. We go around. You know, we... Most human beings, most of their lives Even with their eyes open and their mel and our asleep. Mh. And that's what we're looking for Is those moments that we wake up. And we want more and more of those moments that we wake up when want carry what we realized with woke up.

We we want not to lose it again, when they go back to sleep. But if we wake up doing something in original way. Well that's fine. It does... I that is absolutely. Or you know figuring mean I keep on finding myself in kitchens cleaning up. Yeah. Great. I I do. I'm like... Oh, here. I am in Alberta. You know, picking up all wine glasses alone beer bottles morning, one. Thirty four. High suppose arizona. Because I really feel little bad because my sister laura you know looking at, you know, it's I distance house and she doesn't it not mercy.

You know, but... And then I would wake up and I don't oh here you are, picking out the balls and you your bottles and where you are cleaning up as your service whatever. I don't... And I feel like, do get spell up Yes what I'm really? And it's like, you know, just do it. Like the word it exactly. It's like... And I'm always in somebody kitchen. I know yesterday I was in why kitchen like no. But like, major so. It like like, okay. So for some reason, you know, I'm always cleaning. It's just Then I i was like, you're I am get.

So like with what we're doing. Right. Sort of areas no. That's right. Ritual is an artificially con situation. That helps us to practice being aware so we can be aware all of those i. I mean, let your whole wife become that way right right that. That say, okay. The only way I can do this is turn the light down, light candles ring bell, channel a little while then, I can do this. It's gotta be that's... It's got to be where you can do while you're driving, you do it while you're shopping, you it while you're cleaning out other the people's pets.

Who in the book that I was just reading he said, you know, you can't try it. To do any of. Because there's no view to do the try. But also, there's nothing wrong with people chan and make themselves feel good and feel happy. You know, I wasn't saying that earlier either just that. If that's all you do, and that's as far as you go. It has a limited power that temporarily make you feel good and feel happy. But I'm saying we should aspire to more than that. There's nothing wrong with that. There's absolutely nothing wrong with people doing things.

It launch harms somebody else, nothing wrong with anybody doing something, that makes them feel better. Well, doesn't harm anybody else in does himself. If what you're doing to makes yourself feel better, feel happy isn't parking nothing wrong. But believing that the solution to the so the problems of life is to make is to do things to make yourself feel better. That is pay that is doomed to failure. That will never work. That people chat, just to make thoughts feel better at. And I feel like when you say that, it sounds like it's just some people do.

A lot of people do. They chant. I i, you know, Am i not right? A lot of people do this, they chat because it makes them feel better. Do you think all of them? Well we're just discussing the range of practices that people engage in. You know And so you have to recognize that they're all a lot of people. Who use these practice even meditation they use as a practice to achieve temporary satisfaction. And You know, like I said, there is nothing wrong. Or anything you do? That's not harmful. To achieve temporary satisfaction.

It's just that that satisfaction is temporary. It is going to be tough over time more and more difficult to attain using those particular means. And it is that there are better things to. They're better ways to. I think that you have now standard experience that has a much deeper effect on you than just tapping. Do you think I don't believe it? No. I. And it sounds like you're chanting and you believe that that's the mystic law of the universe that you're chanting. Does it becomes the mystic log of the universe for you.

And you also experience something by changing mystic law pain members. What if you what if you're chanting or what if you're not believing that it's mystical all of the universe. I mean... The so people champ, believing that it is all the. That's fine. What about the other people? Who don't have any belief like that. They just know, hey, I like this. We all get together on Tuesday night. And we chat boy do we ever have a good time and I. And that's what that israel we're retired what I'm talking like.

Well, with the topic That perfect. Stay with the topic. There are all of these different ways and people use these different thing. And I'm saying they cover a range. And and that... Oh there's nothing thing wrong with people doing. And and make themselves feel better. But if you rather than get into a place a judgment about somebody doing something some way, You see if you can leave from along. But right. If just people we get together they chat because it makes them feel better. And you can help them to because they believe that that it's they mystic law All the and it's gonna make view feel better sweat.

Or another person. They're not changing for themselves. Or charging for them. That gets even better. So that's But. When they're chanting for, you know, other people reports, you know, they're not chanting for themselves. So that's even better. Well they actually even. They're still, Certain like sound syllables. From the change have of vibration power. That people do that. At least I seems I learned my time that I I think I probably believe that. Home that's intended they collect that that as that vibration goes out.

Even in your own for your own body, they you're doing what it was of effect and body that's said time everybody who hears it. And then it probably carries out and been prompt every bot. Action depends effect that everything else and. So there's the part of two. And I think some of the change has to do with sending up to vibration field that had affect on. Having experience pain with over called feeling the vibration connection that was there before, you know, the like but really We are old alright.

An experience of hardening and down. Seems like it he eliminates some in people's minds there where where judgment political wealth. Kind of go away this in. It's not for a very long carrying the time that's. Possible music and really get into it, they bill was spirit they get get a shot teeth going through their bodies. You know, speeding and tongues and all kinds of things like that. These are all kind with mysterious things. Jimmy, but they just seem to happen. Well, it's exactly the same thing as Nancy saying, somebody chance.

Nam ring Killed, and they believe that this is lived divine law the universe. What's important, is that they believe that. Where you begin to be an error is if you think there is something special about or something special about Nam or ring or or anything else? Which when you start imp some kind of power to the right or the ritual or some component of it. Then you are falling away from the higher understanding that we're trying to directly recognize. That all of these things are empty. Meaning by saying an empty we're meaning that that they aren't not the way they appear to our minds to be.

Right? So they're not nothing. Yep. I sell. Not no. No not they. No. That's not that doesn't follow. That's a conceptual mind that says, if it's not nothing it must be something. Because if you accept that it's something and this is this is what the whole thing is is, you know, as we says, ultimately, there is Ultimately, there is no thing. There any kind of something same thing that's this is a projection at the. Don't you think that that there's a trap and oh, I think the direction I'm getting a different direction and I'm seeing that there's...

I that's not my belief about my degrees that I make the sense and send it out to. I that I feel like what I'm doing is joining the sound of the universe. Yeah. I'm just coming together with something. Could I... That if I get into thinking that I'm gonna be sending something out, wipe better or know, it's so easy to fall into believing that, I'm doing that, you know? So that's what when you were talking about that that what came up for me and what I have to be careful of when I'm when I'm seeing a belief that he was comfortable me.

That's all. You know like, that's not mine... Yeah. And you're area are absolutely right. We're falling into the trap of self know they're in them striving too her. I mean, we can skype power to various elements of the other like the ritual of the own or we can describe the power to cell, but itself is is much an illusion as any of those thing, and the power does not blow on put cell or then it belongs to those things. But I see that I do that anyway, regardless of how I perceive it in the bigger picture, so it's all about going back to the thing that we've been talking about as being aware in the moment of what we're doing.

Right? That's I just I just think of what I'm doing right now and and trying to be more observing that I'm seeing more of what I'm joining with it isn't. If that makes sense. We all get into that. And just like we have to operate on some kind of a level rare two. Eye there's no From like model. Alright. Long it's weird. And we're experiencing soon out. You know, just going exactly argument answer. Well. You're trying to sit. Oh, but but stopping thinking and stopping feeling and losing consciousness are not the same thing.

Let's see that's me pretty much no self type that. I don't think just private losing consciousness. These photos as actually doing things of the world. That would and the name but Nothing but tran. Back them for them she lost. So not lost much open so. So long as receiving things dual perceiving things do list, but yeah so then what we need to do is to skill fully guide our dual list perception, so fine that we're imp more reality than is avoid to things, add more power and importance value to ourselves.

That is horrible. Then what skill is to is to correct that But we always have... We have to go from where we are, you know, basically has to be in all. So, syllables, or mattress or names of sutra, that we believe is powerful and produces some good effect Up to a certain point is skill full and beyond certain point a stop skill. That we champ mattress for the sake the good of the world because we can't help believing that I am a self and view or self and there's is this world out there that's suffering.

So lets us two cells get together and because this mantra helps this mysterious power in it will invoke its power make things better out there. You know, if that's where we're at on that's where out. But there comes appointment in my door that too. Be only. Oh other cells all. All of your other selves. All your. So that's screen. Doing there that we created with their minds to see that, then We had some some need for inside. For carrie for all these other of our ourselves. Right? That's right. And there's there's two ways we can overcome.

We just do list perception met with cow, because it's dual listed because we've divided in himself and one is to expand the self to include more lori more. And the other is to shrink the self. So we diminish it's importance of. And we can actually do both at once. We can shrink the importance that perceive importance of the self that we feel like we are while at the same time expanding our sense cells to include all these other being. The end result, the end result either way, if you expand self to include everything or you shrink self to last at all.

The end result. Is a reality that's no longer divided than the self. So in a sense you were talking about bernie at roberts. And a nsa. What she's describing is the way that both things happen. The self shrinks, to nothing. And then that's a temporary experience. But it allows you to engage much more fully in process. Eliminating the boundary and emissions self include everything. Have to do the? I think that that is... I I'm not convinced that you'd have to, but I think it's definitely the most common thing that happened.

So I think people do meditation to their practice, whatever their practices are. They come to that experience where the line cease to fabric so and there is no cell. And it's not unconscious. It's just pure consciousness sense. And then afterwards, they still you know, they come back of proceed things away they have before, but with this totally changed perspective, But there's still at this point, a lot of work could do... Now now they have to sort of build to the other way, they have to. Because after all you can't.

You can't live your life. If you're, you know, there's a certain point in time you have this experience, You can't live your life or basically end your life and sound well, pure conscious awareness. What's that? As long as you're in your body, as long as you're in your body, yeah. Combining then you What's. Right. But the difference is be That's right. Different now. The difference is and now you have a totally different metal end too. Now you know the way things really are. Now you just need to change the way your mind works.

To keep reminding yourself deepening understanding. Be some service. That's right.

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