The Mind Illuminated archive

Awakening in Daily Life – Session 7 May 31 2010

Session 7, Day 2
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Automated transcription

Thank you for joining me in that. So we've talked about a lot of different things. The last few days. There's thought there's still are a couple of things that I would like to discuss this here. One of the sutra that there is experts and excerpt and and They gave you. Paid five and that's of the mach I sought on sutra or that discourse on the application, the line. And but course is very relevant to the topic of this weekend. Practices of mindful awareness in daily life. Now, this is just a small part of this right.

But I tried to capture the essence of it in this excerpt. And The first passage here is really from the introduction to search. There is the direct path for the purification of beings or the overcoming of sorrow augmentation. For the destruction of suffering and grief. For reaching the right path for the attainment of. Mainly the four applications of mine. So I just want to point out to you the the purpose of the practice of mindfulness that's described here is the attainment of N nevada. It is it is the ultimate the higher scope.

And he's talking about how to practice mindful awareness and for with or a different targets or application or domains. The first one is the body contemplating the body as an aggregate. And how is the body in aggregate? Well, it's an aggregate of the four elements. It's also an aggregate at all of its different parts. Scan, bone, blood. Brown all the other parts, t their so forth. It is also if you... From your subjective point of view, your body is the source of your experience of the world, all of the sensations that you experience.

And of course, hasn't aggregate, every aggregate eventually to essentially very sent to its component parts. This cons constituents. And so that's why being mindful of the body, it's also important to be mindful that nature of the body is aggregate. Because it is the source of all of our experience and all of our sensation, we elevate our own body in our minds to a special status. And because the bodies of others are objects of desire and a aversion. We also tend to regard body says something more entirely substantial than they really are.

Bodies are. So Not lives contemplating the body in its true nature as an aggregate. Ardent with conscious awareness and clear attention. Putting aside the desires and regions of the world. So that's the first application is awareness of the body and awareness of the nature of the body and also awareness of what the body needs to us subject subjective. It is the source of our contact our knowledge of everything else that they ready. Then the second, application of mindfulness is to the contemplation of feelings, it as they are in themselves.

And dealings here refers to feelings in the sense of that which is pleasant or unpleasant. Or neither pleasant in the right unpleasant? Not referring to emotions, but rather to that quality of every experience. Every sensation you have is either pleasant unpleasant or neither. Every thought, every memory, every emotion every experience of any kind that you have. Is either pleasant unpleasant or neutral. And here, The buddha is suggesting that you'll be mindful of that. That when you when you smell a smell, that this is pleasant, this is unpleasant.

When you your eyes rest on something, resting on something as pleasant or unpleasant or neither Each sensory experience you have is accompanied by a mental experience. We identify what it is that we are feeling that hearing smelling tasting scene. And that also has a feeling associated with it. So we have the feelings that are associated directly with since stations themselves. We also have the feelings that are associated with the metal components that be arise theater. From those sensations. I should say nothing from see from those sensations.

So you pretty example you hear sound. And the sound may be pleasant not pleasant. And then there's the recognition of what that sound is. And when you recognize the source of that sound, it may be something new live or something you like. So once again, you have a different kind of feeling. Downstream of the first line. The first is associated with the sensation, and the second is so it was associated with your natural recognition of... And these come very quickly right after each other. And so if you practice mindfulness this, though, you and become aware of these feelings even though they different kinds of feelings kinda very closely following on after another.

The third aspect of this practice, a third application of mindful awareness. Is to the mental states, the mental states of the mine. Yeah. So what he's asking you to look out here is Is this mine? Is this mind characterized like me by version? By on by agitation, by clarity. Is is it a focus line? Is it a joyful line? Is it a sad mine? Many of the things that we would call emotions are what are being referred to here as mental states. What is the state of your life? And one of the things I'll point out is if these are connected.

Okay. So you have sensations and then you have a conscious awareness of of things that comes from identifying the source of those sensations. And those sensations have that the things that we perceive, sensations and perceptions are accompanied by feelings they're pleasant and unpleasant. And this is what determines your mood very often. If you have a number of pleasant experiences, then the of your mind may be chart or happy. You have pleasant experiences, it may be in a different state. Also, You have an experience it's associated with pleasure as possibly a arising of desire.

You want more of the object that you perceive as being the source of that pleasure. Or conversely, something you have an experience and it's associated with unpleasant. And so your reaction is to a version to want to want that not to be present or not to continue. So all the different met states are very closely connected to the sensations that your body has delivered to the line. And to the feelings that have arise in your mind as a result of that they have to create the mental state. Now it also goes the other way.

When you're in a joyful mental state, what are the things What are the experiences that your attention does there? When you're a joyful state, you notice the things that are. You know, the things that are pleasant. You tend to ignore the things that are not so nice. When you're in a sad, State of mind, you noticed the things that are painful, you notice the things that are ugly. You have an experience of those things? The feeling that arises from what we direct to your attention to us is going to be accordingly pleasant her own unpleasant, and it will reinforce the state of your mind.

So these are working together constantly. You know that. Experiences you have determined the state of your ninth and the state of your mind determines the experiences you have. And it's an ongoing process like this. The fourth application of mindfulness is to the reality that you're experiencing. Moment by moment it. And the important thing is to recognize the role that your mind plays in constructing that reality. That whatever you're experiencing in this moment, is not what it appears to be in and of itself from its own side.

What you're experiencing in this moment is a product of the activities of your own mind. Your mind has chosen to attend to certain experiences, than others. Those experiences are pleasant to unpleasant. You have associations from your past from your past experiences, your cash karma. And that determines also the nature of what you perceive and how you perceive it whether you perceive it as wasn't. So the result is that in every moment, we are living in a reality that is not self real, but rather is the product of the activity of our own mind.

And this is what the Buddha is asking you to practice mindful full awareness. So that's that's what this practice is about. That's an interesting thing. Yeah. Do This sutra begins with the description of entering into the Meta state. And in the very beginning of it. He says, with that gone to the forest or foot of a tree or another quiet place and a abandoned building. That the to be crew the person will sit down Cross legs place his mindfulness beforehand and mindful he breathes in mindful he reads out.

And so it describes the process of developing concentration and unaware. And he breathes in a long graph nose degrees in a along breath. When he breathes out a along breath nose breathes out along right. And he reads any short. He knows and he breathes out a short draft he knows. So this is this is the meditation practice. This is where the line becomes concentrated and focused and highly aware is what's happening. And it proceeds to say that experiencing the whole body as he breathes and experiencing the whole body as it reads out.

It trains. Himself is training this high rubber little awareness, calming the Bo Formation at and pre out. And so this he presents meditation process at the beginning of Vas sutra. And then the rest of the sutra, have many people anywhere you go fire everybody wants to enter interpret if if society on sutra. So there are any interpretations. Okay, what does he mean by? That's? Why it was he mean by that? But for me, there was always obvious. First he describes notation. And then he goes on to describe these other artifacts.

Which to me or so obviously, the mindfulness practice of everything else that is going on in your life. So meditation support this mindfulness practice and other team. And he even says that and if you look at the last little paragraph record. And this is actually a description of what's met bright. With conscious awareness and clear comprehension. Further month and going forwards and him going back is practicing clear comprehension. Looking straight on and looking away from the front practicing clear comprehensive comprehension.

In bending and in stretching is practicing clear. In wearing his shoulder cloak, the robes and the bowl as practicing clair comprehension. In regard to what is eaten, drunk, chewed and savor is practice same cleared comprehension. In deprecating and in your is practicing clear comprehension and walking in standing and, in sleeping and waking in speaking and in keeping silence as practicing clear not comprehension. So it's clear to me that the intention here is for us to observe our body, the body that acts and the body that experiences the world around us.

To observe clearly, the feelings are pleasant, unpleasant and neither that are associated with the sensations and with the perceptions that arise as a result of that. To be mindful of the mental states that interact with our experiences at sections. And most especially to be mindful of a way that this all interacts to create the reality that we're at at any given time. And it is in this way that practicing these applications of mindfulness in your daily life with the foundation with the support of the meditation practice that you come to understand with through nature, of, the way things really are.

So it's in especially the first application of mindfulness that we recognize. The emptiness of the world and the objects in the way that we normally experience so. And emptiness of the self which stands behind these mental states that are being experienced. And the way that our experience unfolds in response to natural states reception. Another thing that was that is very interesting about his instructions here. Just above the paragraph or some lines. And these are repeated over and over again throughout the su.

This whole sutra fairly long and it consists quite a few detailed instructions about all out outreach applications are mindful. And the interesting thing is that after each of these detailed sets of instructions, he says the same thing. He says thus he lives contemplating now i brackets I put these four, but in the in the sutra itself, richard heating over and over again, it would say either body feelings, mental states or the darn according to the section back. He says over and over again, Dusty helios contemplating these four internally.

Or is contemplating the dissolution or dark... Sorry. Internally, or he was contemplating me score. Externally, or who lives contemplating me sport, internally and externally. Now anything that he repeats so often throughout the sutra, must have some. Great significance. Right? So what the expose means to process this mindful awareness internally and externally both internally etcetera Yes. That's right. Yeah. And both, And in terms of externally, you're looking at your sensations and your perceptions and your feelings and your natural space?

He's not suggesting that you examine the mental space of rocks and chair, Right? Got are the people around you. And what's really powerful about this is that... And and this is true absolutely all of a mindfulness practice. That we've talked about is that as you see and understand yourself and these things and your yourself, that, you can see the same things in other people. So now that's wonderful. Because that totally changes the way that you tend to see other people. When you see yourself and someone what else, you understand them in a different way.

And you naturally have much more compassion for that. You have much more understanding. You see them acting that a particular way and you say, oh, I've got that. I know what that feels by. I know what database want to act that. So you see yourself in another people. And this opens you up and opens you up to compassion and understand. But this not your interesting thing that happens to. If you practice mindful awareness, not only of yourself, but a other people, You can see things in other people that you can't see in your yourself.

Right? So it works the other way too. If you practice in this way, Seeing yourself in somebody else and then you see, aha, you see things about you realize. I like that too. I didn't see that. My myself. Yeah. I disguised that at myself. It was obscure. But now you can see it and other people And so this is the advantage of practicing this my awareness internally and externally and both internally and externally. On the one hand it develops much greater understanding and compassion makes us less prone to skill mental state.

On the other hand, it allows us to see and understand much more clearly. Than would if we only examined ourselves. No. After all, would you ever know you had a nose two verizon mouth if you could never see in another chase? At least you wouldn't know what yours lip right. Sure. And he goes on to say he lives contemplating the origin. Score. He is contemplating the dissolution of the sport. And he is contemplating the origin and dissolution of sport. So in examining these... What we also see we him aware of the fact that everything is constantly changing.

Nothing is permanent. Things arise and things pass away. And as we continue to observe this and these right, we come to realize that everything is processed. Everything is a kind of flow. That time. And especially this the reality that we create in our mind appears so stable to us. And the reality of the person that we think we are also appears so stable to us. But if we do this practice, we see that everything is continuously changing. Everything isn't state or flow. And we look inside ourselves, we see the same thing that there is no permanent of abiding cell.

There is this process, the five aggregates are continually undergoing flux and change. And no two moments already ever the same. Me see that. U aha. This that I have is not a thing. Not the permanent enduring substance, but rather ongoing flowing process. Existence of these four is established in as conscious awareness to the extent that is necessary to further increase his knowledge and understanding. He is independent and does not cling to the things of the world. What does that say to you? The existence of these sport is established in his consciousness awareness.

To the extent that is necessary. To further increases his knowledge and understanding. Because what what is it? I mean, do you notice all of these things you've noticed your body in your feelings in your mouth states before? What is different about this practice from how you normally experience it that allows wisdom to. Well, he's saying that he... That they're just only error who the extent that helps them. And he doesn't connect to them like, they're real. Exactly. Yeah. You don't. Identify with me.

You don't you don't make them real. You don't grasp onto to that? You and it's it's very similar to what we do in meditation. Thoughts come meditation We see oh that's a thought. But we don't get caught in the content of it. We go into the content. Oh we're not. We're gone. And it's the same thing. In practicing mindful awareness, you have to learn not to get caught. To see these things to the extent that they contribute to your knowledge and understanding of the way they really are, but without getting lost in a delusion, because your feelings of pleasure and pain, can you can become caught in that.

And once you're caught in them, and you become caught in the mental states of desire version, joy or sadness grief and so on that come out of. And so... This is... This is about staying mindful, not not losing yourself and the experiences that you know. So I think this is a one of the most powerful teachings that we have to packed down to us, and one of the most useful ones. And I really like the way it points out the relationship between meditation, and these practices that you do with walking sitting standing eating, dressing addressing gone and everything else.

Any thoughts on this? Yes. Just has in in less medical what. Yeah mathematical way. Okay. It's not it's razor. The i the function that input input an flood dysfunction in many times isolation. Yes. So I'll successfully image every regard and ask her yeah. State. Okay. And for each and input our sensor information. Does. Yeah. So we can play it having appearance or standard of mental noise from here. And you can make it a experience according or limits audio. Yes. Right. So the output outbound is me just send know this.

Yeah. Comes to another right. Yeah. So pretty uploads again. All well again. So if I'm... Operate. Many other dots, so angry or Mh. Prosthetics. If it choose to be cost you influence, even connected to. And that you tell into upwards and you screenshot it up once again, and it input again as well. Many times as you would got. Yeah join. On the spheres. Mh. So great. In blood tv. To notice the address and it lost of money small this smaller tv like. Available to for us to change our lab into each to change our actually reactions through Yeah.

Out the whole style or not. It's... Okay. Once we understand how it works then the becomes possible to change. And yep... So I I don't know. Did you follow what what he was saying, yes. Like the equation. And most of the time what we do, you know, if if we like our mathematical function, you, and you have the inputs and it produces output. Most of the time, we go around trying to change the input so we'll get a different output. What this is also suggesting is that we changed the mathematical of function.

So that that we're not dependent upon the inputs for getting a particularly time of view result. We can do both. Yeah. Well of course, we can change the circumstances maria. We can spend time and company people. And if we if we live in the right way, we'll have a lot of good inputs. If you are a virtuous person, if you are honest, we don't engage in device with speech or or harmful speech. Or gossip if you don't take things if you're generous, you know, if you're loving if you're patient if you don't get angry, then you're going to get lots of good input.

So you could change the input in that way. But there's also that other part that no matter you you can't ultimately control all of your input. You're gonna get some output, You know, put it this way. No matter how much good company you like for yourself sooner or later even a harvest of that time. So this is where being able to change what happens with that comes into it. Change the function. So even though you get some lots of good input, you don't have to be bad output. At please touch happens my address via knee Actually i, as way as family park.

The Very very rich behavior of that listen i I do a apologize who show that a simple function it a rich behavior from then got application the constantly focus on two period and then for people topic, and then it just to period four and five the very. Some get very purely high in straight. Very yards so basically really. Oh yeah. Yeah. The is it's... Hey all. Can it. Yeah. His. Yeah. Mathematics Say Sean the perfect director because he was he was doing buddhist studies at university arrest and I was studying my head.

It's So you do the the mathematics or boot And know that the private feature is It must be very much of the of but on the outside in the inside. Very much What is the sense of touch happen? Where's the boundary all since since we. It's really hard to tell. And it may very the boundary is very complicated. Not beautiful. And you were going to influence any detail, Just always you can tell wanna see inside also. Right? Right ahead calls. But did you reach up to last distance yeah. Also the save the sign.

Very just need to hear why shall say info arp. And I have a question. Spell that. I see that when he mentioned that input output and also court, and I see the daily life a lot by is definitely influenced and become. Yep. Just yes. And I'm wondering that for for sleep before private it enlightened. There's the input and output and no circle back to input is that that way or this pretty much to steer positive and they go and that almost was for we believe turn out our or unquote positive or host and come back.

We we do delivery do that or gets for the output box. I'm you're talking about? What you're talking about how how good is? The down five down the practice. Because I I see this. If Output put very imports and and all the things just exactly so we that's true. So so if that mean it's we important and we are don't lot of and come back to the import or and we turn out. I don't know. I'm i just curious with. Well, there's there's two two levels to star practice. Add one, the important run that we tax spend a lot of time in in the beginning is what you'd would might...

It's where we are... We're still in the realm of I'm Sorry and the inputs and outputs. Yeah. They're like some star the real no not or not. So what do we do every practice virtue. We practice generosity virtue patients right after, meditate, and if we do all of these saying. We are... We are creating good karma, and we are neutralizing our bad karma but we're still in the realm of Karma. We're still on the realm of inputs and output. If you live in practice this way, you'll have a much better light.

You'll have much happier circumstances. If you practice in this way, you can become less vulnerable to to shattering disappointment and pains and things like this because you have the dog to fall back on. But you're not enlighten. Well we're talking about the second level the On our practice is you actually stepped right out of this entire process. But What you have to do first, you have to practice in such a grade that you prepare yourself so that you can make this transcend leap. You have to get yourself ready.

And You don't know when it's gonna happen. So you just keep on making yourself more and more ready until it does, you know, like much said accidents, so you keep making your yourself more more accident. So you keep on getting yourself ready. You keep on practicing mindfulness you keep on practicing meditation. And your life will get better and better and your car will get better and better. But the truth is, yeah, you're still you're still on the wheel. You haven't gotten off the the wheel. Yeah.

The other important thing that's happening on this is you're not just you're not just making good karma. And you're not just forming a better life because you've become a better person. The other really important thing that's coming out of this mindfulness practice, is your coming to understand the way things really are. And it's that understanding. It's from that understanding that you're going to make the step. That's what's so important. In the process of doing this in the process of following this for applications of mindfulness.

You come to see clearer more more clearly all the time. How the world you live in is a creation of your own mind and how the self that you think you are is just another creation of your own mind. And that neither has any existence outside of your knowledge, and that's really important. Think about this. We all know the story about, you know, there's a rope on the ground, where you see it and you think it's a snake. Right? And we can relate to that. You can imagine that. Imagine that right now that you're going for a walk over here and look down, and you see a snake on the ground in front of you.

Because that's how you experience the illusion. You see a set. At what point are you capable of knowing that it's not a snake? Now some things could happen. You could think to yourself. There's not supposed to be any snakes around yet. Or you could think to yourself. I know all about snakes and I've never... I've never read or heard about a snake that is that color. Or you could think to yourself. Snakes don't lay on the ground like that. But quite lot where they. All that is thinking, but you're still believing, you know it's a snake, but some part of your mind has also something wrong on there.

That doesn't really totally fit the description of a snake. You don't you don't no really that it's not a snake until you see it as something else. When you see it as a rope, now it's not a snake. You have to do the same thing. You'd have to get to that place of understanding it. Basically understanding the character that the three characteristics. That there are no such thing as things. There is only... This process that takes place. And it is can't any nature of being the way we their way it appears to us to be.

And you recognize that to claim to that, which is not real to that which is empty can't only make you suffer. And then you realize that the self that you believe you are is also an illusion and that going through your life acting in a way to surge the interest or this a loser cell is only going to lead to suffering in the dissatisfaction. So it's when you really see that. This is this is inside This is what we're after and this process is the gain and inside. And the inside is that things We see things as one way, but they're not that.

Right. And all of the problems that we experienced, or because we act as so they are something that they're not. And this is the inside. Well, this is good. But even with insight, you're still on the web. Okay. But it makes it possible. What you'd have... What you have to do is to see things as they really are, but the first step is to is to see that it is an illusion. And yeah. So everything that we do helps us... Helps to bring us to this place. Of understanding. But then, the final step is this leap that those completely beyond.

Now when you when you're... When you experience that transition, what changes? And this is what you're asking? What happens? Somebody gets enlightened. And they still go around in the world doing things and producing results. Right? But the difference is that if a person is truly enlightened, there is no south. All there is is the five aggregates. And all there is is cause effect. And so for you and I we look and we see Buddha walking through the world, talking teaching and doing things. What we see is those aggregates.

And part of what happened As he became of buddha, is he worked on his matter on the mathematical function so that no matter what kind of inputs? The output is something that's beneficial. On the inspire barrier it's only exists for the benefit of those beings that are still trapped in the illusion and see and i But the buddha is no longer a self and is no longer experiencing things as a separate entity. The buddha has gone to suction. To isn't. That's where what is to the buddha has gone to the reality that lies beyond the illusion.

And so while we're still in the illusion, we'll still see the process of cause and effect happening. In in the same way. And the way we see it is that individuals are affected by things and individuals do things. But this is not with respect of such, this is not for perspective or also much young. So where has to body and speech of the buddha still functioned in the marketplace. The mine that the who the well and her die. But you're absolutely right. And this is an important point that no matter how i'm good it you make things.

No matter how much you purify your karma. If you're still trapped in the delusion, it's only a matter time before you make more or not or good karma or whatever. As long as you're in the delusion, you're still... You're still caught in talking. And we can't... You know, if we could magically he bumped out of it, and that would be good. We'd step right outside of it. But instead, what we have to do is to work. With the delusion that we're taught him to work with Karma. So let's work with the client.

Let's make it work for us Let's purify our her and let's bring ourselves to the point where we can go beyond the delusion. To make that final step and transact it. K? That is important to understand because of course, especially if you start being successful in practice. You might come to think that making good car is really making good karma and getting rid of all your back karma that's all it is too. But yeah. And, you know, you're you're kind of justified in thinking that It's like, wow, everything's going so well now.

You know? But the trouble is that everything that is due to causes and conditions is subject to change. Everything in slew causes and conditions will pass away. So no matter what? Positive beneficial state that you create for yourself. It's a state dependent upon causes and conditions, And when those causes and conditions are exhausted that state will pass away. And in the meantime, everything you're doing. Is contributing new causes and conditions, and there is always the possibility that some of those are going lead to an undesirable outcome.

So until the mathematical function is absolutely totally perfect. Which I don't know if ever can be. But as long as it is, sooner later, you're going to get an output that is an oi one. Trying be is disappointed. Yes part. The difference speaking Buddha and other bray wise sage that e is completely liberated. Person. And and, you know the process this money. Like, you know, he he gets into deepgram stage of concentration at he still see that you know, this still kinda, you know, conditional and subject to to aging and that...

Yes. Exactly. And But then, you know, how this how does one know what's straight to? That the goal has been reached side, you know, somebody was used to eating rain way salty boot. All of a sudden, you know, you know, it's exposed to food are a lot salty and this so long, you know, the salty level is lonely the point that's un undetectable by the person who's he used too great so thinks. Probably about a long time of eating up through before they realized oh they're still solely us. And so maybe takes a lot of time to finally realize whether person has is she a call or the person will just simply know.

Well, That is a problem. How do you know when you achieved the goal? We can there a lot of wonderful attainment along the way. And it is the nature of the process that people do mistake those for the goal. You know and that happens over and over again. It is one of the important roles of a teacher who has already traveled the path because you know, that they can they can tell you where you are. Like more importantly, they can tell you where you are. You're not there. Yeah. It's isn't more important for us to to know that we are there instead of having other people tell us something No.

It's... Yes. It's more important for you to know you're there. What's important for other people is if they can tell you when you're not there yet, certainly you don't quit practice and making the effort. That's that's exactly good thing. You know one of the things that happens in meditation is that you you will come to place where you experience great or like tranquility? And it will stay with you when you're not meditating. So you throw out in the world and you know, you feel like you transcend everything.

Things so while you don't get upset. You're happy, you love everybody, you're not attached to things. And this is very similar to what a like to be awakened. But you're not awakened. It's only the result of your meditation practice. Because if you don't continue to meditate then it will go back to in the way it was before. The troy will say the tranquility will say the energy will fade you'll start to react to things again, things will start to bother you again, so forth. So this is a good example of something that know wall this is this is the state of Sabotage.

So somebody who practices an the chief of son might become convinced and they do good that it happens a lot. They become yes. I'm gonna enlightened now. Listen is it. I'm perfectly happy. You know, I understand everything. Nothing bothers me. I love very good What. What more could there be? What more could they be? And they they become convince out it. What then happens of course is that they might set themselves up in a position of of the teacher. And they gather a whole bunch of students around them to, you know, admire and door them.

And their practice against to slack off and then the cracks began to to show. They lose that state But now they have an ego investment. Yeah. They can't say. Oh, well. I guess I have to go back and practice similar because they've already sold himself to all these people, you know, i mean might masters. So, you know, I just say, well, I I i realized if that's not really and I gotta go back practice are not in a child. Maybe he convinced himself they're very close and they're stuff you're kinda like out us.

Was gonna be i... Yeah. They're bo saw was stuck along the way. And and they stuck in a chapter their making. But, if that person had a good teacher, the teacher was said, this is that you're experiencing. And it's dependent if upon your meditation practice and it won't last. Something's gonna come along in your life that's gonna blow it up And when that happens that's gonna all be gone. Or you're gonna get sick and you can't meditate anymore. And it's gonna all over. Or you're gonna get... You can enjoy Chris on this wonderful place or a period of time.

And then you're going to get old and sick and you're gonna die. And it's gonna awful all. Alright. So it's not... What's important is that you don't del yourself and this is where somebody else I'm saying. Not important with somebody else says oh, Michael you're awake now. I mean, if somebody says that says you don't need to practicing same anymore like here. Right that doesn't do you any anybody at all. The x i still if I can't still since I'm suffering, it's it doesn't matter what other people say.

I know that happened. Like. Yeah. That's right. But the thing is that you can become convinced and and light when you happen. And there's to problem them. There's where a teacher can say. Well, Michael, you might not be. So I want you to keep this in mind. And I want you to notice these things and keep practicing and do this and do guys. And then, you know, if the salt is still in there after a little while. It won't take too long because now now you haven't blinded it yourself by saying, this is it.

So now you'll be able to taste style yeah still some salt in there. Haven't haven't a arrived yet. Yeah. Total salt free diet. They all having have discussion with chris earlier. He had a question in regarding you, you said that that. The word like this suffering. And then I he disagree with that because he feels a lot of times for he need meditation he feels to nothing but joy. Mh But then, you know email, to me, that just sounds like somebody who is still eating ignorant enough a subtle subtle suffering that is still there because, you know, when we're in the stage it's condition.

Any that's conditions subject to aging that exactly. And and so so email, even if if it say for example, compared the normal salty diet and I have, you know, the diet, you know, he send it. At that time is much low so. It's still blue, you know, that that has you know, some substance of sodium japan. Mh. So so fundamentally, you know, the same he hasn't haven't reached a point that I, you know, the you know, that who is entirely soft. Yeah. And You know so meditation, if you're successful in meditation, you reach places that can't you to think that, well, this is as good as it can get, or this is good enough.

And Unless somebody tells you differently, that's that's exactly what you're gonna think. But meditation that produces that, there's no different... you know, I mean, maybe the first person that ever smoked open So i'll was saying. Oh, this is it. I've got solution. Now all I have to do is keep smoking open the rest of my last i be pain only the happiness. But the first time you run out of. Not for sure not easy like. How. Key for? The thing that's w There's so many people before said that they Well, and And I do believe a lot of those people were I, you know, I...

The buddha wasn't the first person to achieve in my. But Do you have people that achievement enlightenment and noah and hear people haven't achieved an enlightenment right and don't have look they happen. Plus. How how does the good know? Well, it let's put it in another problem is the The realization of the way things really are, experience we have of the emptiness of self enhancing of our mental projections. And the question can be asked. How do you know that that's real? How do you know that that's not just another natural projection?

Because you had a lot of really good medical projections long the way. So how do you know that that's not another? Experience and generated by your mind. And there's no simple answer to his question. But When you have that experience, it changes the way your mind works. And that's what's important about it. Not the experience that you had and not even whether the experience you had was genuine or not. Did I have the genuine power experience or not? Ultimately, that's not what's important. What's important is, did your mind change the way it works?

Such a way that you are downstream metric. And if we look at what the suit say about that, Nowhere in the sutra, do you find the buddha talking about enlightenment experiences Da Mara and, you know, these this these experiences You have the buddha talking about the person who is a stream on the qualities they have. The def that they have overcome. That's what you find. That's right. So this is... So in a way this avoids the question of how do you know whether the and enlightenment an experience you had was real or not?

It's real if you have become person have the characteristics so that I like being afterwards. As far as strain entry is concerned. The experience you'd have though it is an experience of nirvana. And the experience you have you have no doubt about that that is completely totally outside learn out of any other ordinary experience. Even though you may have had a mistaken idea about other experiences in the past. This time, you know it's different. But you can't explain to somebody else. How, you know, it's different.

But that is one of the qualities of it. And a very sophisticated clear thinking person, could present you with a very strong argument that well, you can't really know that for sure. Because every experience you have goes through the filter of your mind. And so this is just one more experience. So how can you say if this is a direct experience or reality when, you know, well, you can't counter that argument. But the experience itself leaves you. But that's not what's important. What's important is the change that it produces in so.

But the other thing is that actually progress on the path, become a stream. And stream do often slack off. It's like, wow, this is pretty good. You know? Great. I I what I have attained, you know, and they don't necessarily sustain their practice. They will go to a period of negligence. But, you know, what will happen is eventually gonna realize it it's two. This is on. I'm still plagued by desired inversion. I still experienced suffering. I, you know, it may be nothing like the suffering at least in her, but i still experience.

I still just slip into negative mental states to bring about skill actions and the consequences that So at some point you know is for video go. Then you reach the stage of of the once return or the non return. Where you really you either really diminished all grading or you've obliterated all sensory trading. And from that point, You absolutely... You know with... Not only do you know with total of certainty that what you that the nirvana that you have experienced. Is genuine, But you also know with equal certainty that you have not yet reached the end of google?

And I can tell you what happens after that. Well seems like it's not easy to determine whether person is a frustration or or not because a lot of people who on first frustration stay with it. Displayed similar characteristics. So this seems like the important thing is to reach the ultimate goal. The respond life later decide for if if, if if you know, we have reached, you know, patricia not you know, it's like, you know, whether it's kinda through to be big and think about it. You just you know, she's just and for the highest possible goal.

That's exactly right. It does not matter because until you have attain buddha, you haven't completed the path. And it doesn't... It doesn't matter. Where you are on... Well, in there certain respects in which it does matter. But I mean, in terms of that until you've achieved the final goal, then you have nothing to do, but to keep those clientele results. And if you think you're if you think you're a stream nutrient and you're not, it doesn't matter that much. As long as you keep practicing, it only matters.

If you think you're stream it and you start slack up. Could be actually that if if somebody realized there if she manager. The device slack up. There's a... There is a temporary period where people people He was some people when they achieve, it just fires them up and they, you know, they practiced the a hundred times more diligently than ever learned before. But this others just say, wow, okay. Trying to take a little vacation and. Enjoy all this. The fruits of my hard work. But the thing is that if they are...

What whether there a stream or not, in either case, they have not transcend suffering. And so sooner or later, they're going to come to the point where they say it's time to get back into the practice again. Caucasian. Because when it said life is du, it it's it could be perceived as all of black do kinda like, a hundred percent of it... But keeps... He wants know that Could it be just... It's a two car? Like, it's a ninety five percent cup or five percent closures? And then when you practice, So then the percentage of the joy gets increased, so then maybe you have forty percent happiness and six percent cut and then progress and until you gaining light and then it's a hundred percent happiness and zero two cup.

When you're in enlighten... It's zero. Yeah. When you're when you're in like it it is zero two. But before that, It all depends on how you measure it. So if you take your own life, you have a pretty good life. Let's take a piece of your life. Let's take the last month. And you say well sometimes I was happy and sometimes I agree unhappy. And sometimes I'm not so sure. There was happy or happy. Right. And of course, times when I was really, really happy and times why was really, really unhappy times when i was sort it happy as it sort of not happy.

So how do you turn that into seventy five percent twenty five sixty five percent? Thirty five percent things like that. It's a little bit difficult. The other thing is that you look at it in smaller chunks just say, okay. Let's look at this time, Last sunday when, you know, from six thirty seven to eight nineteen pm. I thought I was really, really happy in the examined my closely. And you find that there was... It wasn't all... Do car. There were there were the moments where you come to the happiness you had.

And that's actually way that we you you had the fear of losing it. You know, you have the thought... Oh this isn't going the last. So even with them are happiness as is some disguise to do that. And ultimately, even if you have ten minutes of pure bliss, It is the entire ten minutes. Is Du in the sense that is not going to watch. So it depends on how we look at it. Now what a lot of people will do is to look at their life and they say, well, you know, yeah. Was a lot of pain and suffering like, but mostly my life is pretty good.

So like that's good enough for me. I'm happy that. And you'll find people after they like that. And they're pretty happy easy going people. Because they're looking at that life that way. But whenever Du means un. And it's if you look closely enough then you find that their life is still characterized by dissatisfaction that They... It's not really satisfactory when their child dies or their spouse stars or the parents die. Things like that. There is all kinds of suffering along way. When they get that diagnosis of cancer or whatever it's a lot of dissatisfaction that's in that.

When they're told, well, you have a choice, you can do all those chemotherapy. Gonna make you really sick for three months. But then you might live for a year longer than you would otherwise. Three months of miserable Misery chemotherapy versus but any year longer. There's a lot of dissatisfaction in that choice. There's a lot of dissatisfied in that experience. So Depending on how you look at it. You can look at life one way and say, no. It's not all du. It's got its up and its down. So it's got some du and it's got some secret, and that's the way we usually look at it.

Then but you can look at life a little more closely a little more realistically. And you realize that there is no place on the wheels. I'm sorry, that is truly comfortable but it's truly happening is truly free from Du. K? And whether whether or not you practice the darn, and how diligently you practice the dha is going to be partly determined by how where you are and how willing you already accept it. Some people are saying say well unwilling to accept thought about Du and other people say that they're not.

Do you wanna take your right go wash?

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