The Mind Illuminated archive

TCMC 6 May 2010

Automated transcription

small internet. This crazy. Well he he is certainly ming certainly likely. There's a natural born entertainer. Yeah. Great. Oh. I was trying to put my finger on Whether she Had really planned for us or not or the at least the audience that we we made. Thought he he was address. And he, he seemed to know that there since we in the hospital, but there a lot of humor there. Mh. And Sort of listening to that frame of reference. What he had to say to the years? Mh. And I'm not sure that that came feel really strong.

I'm title of the talk was healing the body and the mine. Heart. Mh. Or he the heart in the month. That's right. He your heard going. So. So... It it was... I was he was mostly just introduction to the very most basic premises of medications. But she did in very amazing way. Yep. Could it is interesting. When he said, you know, you can mute yourself when you start to vehicle look at what by this you and what your problems are, and what my bad is so far so much part of this whole teachings terms of doesn't you have to talk.

Talk about healing that. If like when you get there, you're happy. You have my everybody, then you having for with other people. Even lam suspects too like speaks like this. And they don't talk. They don't use the words. We use so much invest in... You know what I'm saying? It's more so much time of the teachings in itself that when you get it, you also get for what it is. Yes. Well, you know, the the whole thing is a human. I mean, basically. Everybody on the planet is is natalie ill here's here's situation.

But he did use a very good an example to the begin with of his own. The sergeant. Because and and that's that's exactly how it works, and he explained that is you don't... You know, you don't... I can't remember what you said you don't Yes. Loop. Yes. Yes. You i'll say yes. I don't say yes, sir. You don't try to drive other way. Yeah. Yeah. K. So you know, surrender to it. Right? And everything will come up on it some you don't need to look for well, it will make itself known and due course. But I was impressed that he said that that study, they had people had to have ten thousand hours to rotation.

Yep. Before they were... You know, like well. And that's because that's specifically for this study you know, they're doing. Long term medi from to that tradition. And the idea tradition? What's that? Was is it just for to go? Yeah. This work... This was this was one of the projects that came out of mine in license institute. Okay. And actually, the first time they tried to do it, they were going to do it and darn solo. And the dollar lam had arranged all this. All of these long term that agreed, and then they card all this scientific equipment India.

No. No. And I don't know any even the darn solo at the road from fidelity. I'm sorry something else. Although maybe that you took the train, I, I don't know. But they took all the scientific equipment in it. And then all the yogi backed out. So so then, you know, they took them years to do it again and by then... Well, two things that happened is that they weren't... The scientists weren't willing to haul the equipment to India again. But also, there's much more sophisticated equipment like the Fm you can't So...

But i also it seemed like a really good strategy she get the Oecd United States, and, you know, they're they're less likely to say at the last minute. Change life. But... Yeah. The idea setting ten thousand hours of really long term practitioners so that the sample will be as uniform as possible. Because it's been the problem with almost all of the studies on medication that have been done. They've been done on people who haven't been meditating very long. Some longer had some some not as long. And, of course, the quality of their practice.

I mean, you know, somebody said I've been meditating for five years, so I just said me, you know, off on every few days and you know, sometimes I go for a couple months without but I get back to it. And this has been going on for five years. Right next the somebody who's maybe even been sitting, you know, once in the morning less in evening and never miss the day in the last five years. So So... Yeah. Ten thousand hours should take you way beyond the point where, you know, sudden Yeah. It's it's not like something new it's gonna happen at ten thousand hours if i don't have.

Let's you discouraged by the number. Just dazzled her. And and how do you document thousand hours? Yeah. What is what is at then. That would be one hour a day for ten years. Or something it'd ten thousand. Okay. Three three years would be a thousand days. The ten thousand days would be thirty years. So so would be... It would take thirty years at an hour or a day like that. Okay. So on the other hand you do... If you retrieve sprint meditate, you don't just take care block. So. Not. That wasn't interesting piece of his his story about the panic.

Yeah. Mh. That's read. Isolation the at the point he was ready to mh. To embrace it that way was the the breaking. That's right. Yeah. It was very helpful for me. For a lot of his things you know, foley are Mh. Whatever some issues that come up is. I I found that very helpful. Mh. There... So that was a a very useful sort of tool that He could take away as far as their questions about annotations that in this case, study was the process that led to the point where he was ready me panic here that way it could be conscious decision happening.

Yes. Did that was that was the turning points exactly. When he made that decision and said, you know, doing two more years of this? Or do I wanna get serious about? That made all the difference right there? Because... Know, until there's commitment, was... Yeah best fine. But once once there's a commitment, they have no choice. Guess I better faces. You talk so often about the different parts of the mind. When you talked about the monkey mine gift something to do that that It was me that's what you said.

Okay. Yeah. And my monkey one is here I don't have to go there too. I can say. And I have another part of which ones to do this one. That was very helpful as picture too as an image because it's always like Know. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. K And and that is the nature of our mind. Mh. So fun it's alright. The normal mind is what we would ordinarily say, but seems to me... I can't recall exactly didn't he say... Or maybe he wasn't talking about mine maybe talking about rare that's. Five. Hang. With image be lake?

Mh with the image of the lake where you have... Yeah then... Oh, that's right. Yes. That's right. That was image there. Yeah. Because... Yeah. All of that noise and stuff is it's all at the surface. And... Yeah. And of course, but we're after is a nice placid light where that perfectly reflects that the the sun of the moon and yeah. Clouds in the service. Well. Yeah. The true true nature of mine. And happiness bliss joy is the natural state of the night. Know in terms of mental states because i you even in regard all of all of the signs of things that we usually call emotions as being mental the states a particular state that the line is in.

And the natural state of the mind when it's not all turbulent and stirred up is is joyful. It welcomes whatever comes. This wow. Isn't this wonderful. Mh. I found it difficult in in the setting when people asked about mental illness or this woman who had this major post traumatic disorder. I understand when they from, but how can you answer that in a in a group? Tell like this without being... I mean, you have to be superficial, you know, obviously there is so much in a personal case, and you cannot just answer that with beginning meditation or introduction to meditation.

I wonder what people want. I really do they think they get they get it clear also that they can. You know this is what more to understand? I I think the questions is coming from from their heart and not for their mind. The one woman was suffering from Ptsd the other person may very well have family members who is sc or something like that. And so it's like, they they want an answer they don't know they engage pricing s well. And there's room pool people. Not can't probably get the answer at needs.

Yeah. Mh Or we only be some something they can grab on and then pursue me. Yeah. And I wonder myself, you know, what what What can we do in though when somebody is severely sc or, know, has some other mental disorder that is is is so bad. I just don't know. What i mean, this answer was I mean they have to work and then that was wasn't the asap. Mh. Yeah. I I... Is... But the implication is they have to be in a place where they can understand And appreciate what notification is. Mh. And their own situation and after want meditation.

You know, and, you know, how it is with what people was really severe. They don't miss. They may be in that place. Right now, but they won't be an hour for. And I just... I'm not sure what... Although what I have seen is quite a few people now, but it's bipolar disorder. Who are treated successfully with drugs that stabilize them. And then they start meditating and it gets to the point where they start using less and less medication and eventually get off it entirely mh. I just have no experience at all with medication and schizophrenia.

But I know a lot of people is good a friend dry too you do have experience with that you could? Yeah. What i'm scared. I about. I have seen a lot of people with schizophrenia or who with are free sc schizophrenia strongly Drawn to the to get in tradition with all of it, you know, visualizations and deities and other worlds and invoices and things like that. And i've seen it have there's disastrous effects on the element krishna that Nancy referring to. Somebody was not very, very close me. And it just became the platform for a lot of sc delusion.

Mh. Going for to same person? What? Well, I was talking about sharing. I was talking about peggy. Oh, peggy. No. Well, that's true. Yeah. I've been working with one person it's page. She's had really good results but she's well controlled with admitted medication, and she takes her meditation quite seriously. She's been doing extremely well. Thank you for inviting me about. So in that case, the medication did bring this person to place where of at least clarity. Yeah. Oh in choice Nikki. Yes. Mh.

That's right. The medication stabilizer and then the meditation dealt the awareness and the understanding. And so you know, so she would come up with questions really to do with our inner voices and and things like that. I can't I trust that? Well, she'd already done the important thing. She turned to the place of a questioning, whether she should listen to that. Why on that. Mh. You know, and that was a really an important thing. And so then it was possible to to structure her that, you know, sometimes your intuitions are right.

But very, very often they're not they're completely wrong. So never trust them. Always keep always keep an open mind. I always have room for for the discovery ask first or try to find out. Don't jump to conclusion. The student has to be an open vessel yeah to receive the instruction, he have fundamental. That's right. Yeah. Would you talk about the kind of your meditation teach not about the visualization at the date that will square it event go to illusions. Yeah. That's right. It's very different in terms of grounding.

That's right. Going off fine. That's right. This is the practice that I think it is. It's very grounding. It's always... Well let's get real. Just get you hit more real. And and that is that is an important really, really important to have I've often had the question to myself and know, I've never pursued in class but just since it has come up. Just wondering within the framework of of of buddhism and and the wall of the monkey mind and Mh. I precious mental illness spirit into that. What's explanation How do...

Is there any way to to make it adjust to what would been saying about money? Well, it's not to my knowledge, it's the mental illness itself. Is not ever really addressed as such in ancient buddhism. Religious buddhism has a simple answer. Both your karma. Mh. Something you did in, you know, that's right. But as far as a theoretical basis of it, because I mean about the closest The that the closest it comes is some things that Buddha said that to para freeze them would be to say, everybody's crazy just summer more so than others.

Everybody needs everybody needs to secure. And he presented the four noble truths as has a treatment for a disease. And that the those those four items are the traditional v diagnosis of, you know, a, diarrhea, a sickness. No matter what kind of disease all the physician always first identifies the disease identifies the cause identifies they cure and prescribe the treatment and that's what the four noble follow. And the buddha on a number of different occasions compared to human condition, to a disease.

So that's why I say you could sort of para phase that and say, all humans are mentally ill. Put some more so others. But Yeah. And unfortunately, the the tradition, the traditional teachings themselves, don't really offer as much explanation for this enormous tragedy. But issue, if you think about it, it is like all of these other tragedies that default people. I mean, why should somebody be born with down the center? Why should somebody be born with some other serious deformity like spine dish crippled or anything like that.

Why would somebody be born with a brain that is so vulnerable to becoming der and functioning and in that kind of way. And Well, in a sense there is an answer. Which is that nothing is as as it seems. And this... So when we're looking at reality, as consisting of individuals. And why is this one so favored? And why is this individual experience so much suffering an injury. The the true buddhist answer is not lost because it's something you did in previous life. It is something aligned to that. It's the individuality that we experience is not the true nature of things.

It's more the make sure one to whole from a reality, of which we're all apart and So explanations, once again, this is not a buddhist explanation, but it's something you might heard the idea that that this is a process of the universe becoming conscious of itself and all these different hearts. Part stuff to be clay. And so each of is playing particular part, you know, but we are not a separate individual but gee, why did I get such a lousy part and somebody else type to leading role of the the best man or or that whatever.

But rather that there there all roles that are are part of the whole and. So when when do you look at it? From that point of view, then perhaps it makes a little easier to accept. Yeah. I was... It it was... I was worried just in the mechanism among of mental illness. It's it's almost like you know, that month time that trying to to calm down. It's it's almost like some people don't have are not able to stress some degree of control on that. So it just bit just around. Yes. Well, a good example that would be somebody was attention deficit this certainly.

I mean, they have really severe not mind. But people with attention deficit disorder, to respond extremely well, the training and education. So the The mechanisms for something extreme like like ad, which tends to show up in people when they're pretty young most of the vast majority cases of Ad show up and young children. And they often tend to get a lot worse. I think the circumstances the circumstances child finds can definitely contribute enormously to becoming worse. And so, you know, why they would be born with the previous predisposition to Add d?

That's that. Question that Karma tries to answer. Mh. And then why they would happen to be in an environment say a family a neighborhood or school. Where all the circumstances cons conspired make worse, you know, for that too, that that's that's the kind of question that Karma tries to answer. But there's another way of looking at this and you see, you know, here all the people that come to learn medication, most of them have Ad. Didn't diagnosed with Ad d. And they got a lot sad d than they used to have.

They got what? They have a lot worse kd then they used to have... Yeah people like up to vegetation. Yeah. It's smooth... Yeah, The vast majority of people come to meditation. And so they sit down and they discover the multi night. That's A d. Right? So attention deficit this or it's not so bad that it keeps them from functioning. And if they sit down in practice, they overcome it. Fairly, you know, fairly quickly fairly readily. It takes some time. It takes some more. But in it sense, The true purpose of meditation doesn't kick in until after they've already cured their Ad t.

You know? And I'm not sure the meditation is ultimately going to turn out to be the best of all ways to carry the Adp. Meditation the real value of meditation comes when you gotten over your Adp, you know, when you're now able to keep your mind on one object for a reasonable period of time. Now that you can start to gain understanding and insight and see the nature of your mind become aware of not just the Add d, but all the other mental disorders that you accumulated. Mh. All the false beliefs that you have adopted.

I it safe falls. So I say non functional beliefs, that we have adopted and incorporated into our way of of functioning in the world. And they don't really they don't really accomplish a desired goal. They tend to complicate our life. That's part of our mental order disorder. And then other mental disorders are the difficult situations that we then that have conditioned the line to respond and really on race. You know, the the tragic circumstances that have happened when we were children or when we're adolescents or in our relationships or in cloud or our jobs.

Or in our interactions with our children. We all leave their mark and they condition us and they leave us pre predisposed to having a sense of ina and lack of self worth or bank farm or far too prone to anger, or to fear or to worry. Mean these are all mental disorders. And then like, the like schizophrenia for example, Mean did kind know you've eligible seeing the movie is solo us. Yeah. But it's it's about... A musician we've seen But I mean, you know, he snapped under extreme pressure, but out a J.

You know, but I mean, one situation for one person that's pressure or stressed. Mh. You know, I mean there's a huge continuum of Yeah. You know, why why would why would you snap? Let me or what you know, there's... Both... The pressure. I mean the mechanisms of for mental illness. Well I think that is that is the predisposition that some people are born with. Their brain, just gift if the wrong thing sat onto street to to to develop to disease like that. And, of course, what happens between birth and that kind of situation can't he make that particular mind more prone to snapping or more res resilient.

So... And there's sorts. But, you know, spite of all the people that goes through the pressure of Gee school of music, you know, I I don't know how many other one besides this one could obviously schizophrenia, but they usually don't. Same thing all once they go through a Harvard law school. Any other really, you know, John Hopkins medical school, very intense, demanding, high standards. Most people don't snap. It's the ones that something they arrived there with something that with the vulnerability.

Right But what I was talking about though was how We all are naturally ill. Okay. And twelve. I'm pretty well that too. But that's. And and the the schizophrenia is when we have delusions about the way things are. We got con con a view of the world and then maybe we feel like we're tapping into other dings, other voices, other worlds that are sending us secret messages and things like that. Well. Anybody does fine. No. It's just a question of delivery. People everyone has their superstition. Everybody has some form or another of voices that, you know, they.

And it's funny when you're meditating that you start to... When... When you're able to develop a little bit more your skill. How the... you know, the there's the word that answers enters of sudden the things come from. That's right. Yeah. It comes up, you know? And and everybody that comes to meditation with a whatever mental little and so. If they stay with it, they will cure them. They'll go through their old personal process of of psychological therapy because all of these things, to come up and you'll have the opportunity to look at it and, you know, and and and accept it, and that's like he was saying tonight about the panic.

It make friends with it, You know? Okay Make friends with it. And then when it realizes it can't you change anymore support goes saying another time when you talked about how is still responding when you think you are fine with your mind who? When I even I would be the situation. I didn't, know all of that. And steroids like this. And I do my tools, and I have all these... And it's still my heart raising, and I'm having and I I can't do deeply as I used to it. So the body is so slow in terms of remember of relation to what my mind my emotions at know already.

Well, but but it... The proven that it's just the opposite of that you're have a physiological reaction before we had a mental reaction. And that's why confusing to me because i in situations that I've chosen, And and one of them was to move across country and everything fell into place, and it was my decision, and I took a six months leave of absence for my job here. And so I I wasn't. It wasn't anything that would... The yet. I just developed just we released for severe chest where I was on on a cardiac met soon as I got on with that, and I didn't feel that I was stressed And so you know, it's it's it's very confusing for me to understand that.

Mh. And I had situations that that I'll have a vi physiological reaction to something that I think that I'm very comfortable with. Yet obviously, I'm not So I I just find interesting. Yeah. But that they have found. Scientifically. Which shocked to me that that you have more... You will have a physiological reaction, gut reaction, whatever is, like, maybe in a stress situation or a getting your a situation, we've all experienced that for, you know, the hair will raise up on the back or here you get that gut chilly.

Mh. Before the brain realized that's it. Well, I Now who said before the brain realized so. It ever said that to... Well, from from some of the the lectures that I mentioned that one in consciousness I went to it was a a epidemiologist. I don't remember seeing from, you know, and seeing that was giving it was talking about some of the studies that you had the physiological moment I went to another lecture. And then I'm also married to an Md d, And I was talking to him about it because i this is really strange.

And it's though, yeah. You you do get that. So I don't know. You're right. Maybe maybe if you have a knee age in your knee ekg and any Or... Well, we don't even have... That doesn't even exist sophisticated enough instrumentation yet. To really tell what's going on right the frame would kick there before them. But when you say the brain, I don't think you need in the brain. You have. And if you were to say the mind, I don't even think you you you you might mean the my mine, but I think you haven't really thought about to mind yes.

What you're talking about is that very small plan part of the line that is consciously aware. You know So as go the other way with that, you know, your your conscious mind is totally unaware of this. So... Your conscious mind. Thanks quite the opposite. And if you if you recognize or if you're willing to accept as a hypothesis, that the mind does not want things, but as many separate processes. Each doing a particularly job fairly simple job and they're organized we work together, but but So there's one part of your mind.

It may actually probably does consist. Many other smaller cars, but all working, but they formed the unit within your mind. Mh. And that part of your mind, has rationally examined, you know, the the plan that you made and the arrangements and looked at the pros and cons and come the the provision that this is a really good idea. And some other part of your mind that has not come in to consciousness that according to it's conditioning, it's programming its value system. This is a terrible thing. This is something to be avoided.

And so you get ready to go and do this thing thinking. Oh, this is a really great thing. And that other part of your mind presses the emergency button and all the sirens start to go and you know, your hands sweat and your heartbeat beats and and your... Your mouth is dry and you know, how all these things happen. This is all coming from your brain. I mean, your mouth doesn't get dry, their bones don't sweat, unless nerves from your brain stimulate that happen. But it's not even that We don't even need to think of well over the brain.

But it's it's really obvious. Should be really obvious when you think about it. But there's all kinds of things going on in your mind, not you're not conscious of. This is what the whole profession of psychology and psychotherapy is based on is that why are you behaving in this appropriate way. Or why do you always react? You know, you go and get in relationships with people. And then as soon as he really you're in a relationship, why you always revert to this, you know, and and the person doesn't know this is what they wanna solve why obviously that and the whole all of the psychological work to deep down and find out what's going on in the unconscious mind that doesn't like this that resists against that and can't stand the idea of commitment because of something that's happened in the past that no longer applies.

So Are you following me? I I I understand what you're saying. Okay. I I think it's not just the dramatic case you're seeing, but paul of the time. We if we pay attention, we'll find evidence of one kind or another. Mh. Of emotions that we're not aware we have that are reacting to things, but we're not aware that we're reacting due our conditioning. Yeah. Right. Right. So... Well Understand these. And And there's different levels. Like these these things there's the physical every emotion has a pattern.

Somewhat similar from person to person, but not exactly the same. But each each one of us is unique in that But there's a certain thing, You know, our body will react in a particular way to all the different familiar emotions. You know, the blood flow increases to our face into our hands when we're feeling well affection. You know and just the opposite happens when something else, you know, and so all of every emotion, produce these effects in the body. And it produces the sensations in the body.

You know, the feeling tightness in israel. Mh. The ache and your heart. You know, to for not and the pit your stomach. These are sensations. That you know, sometimes an emotional sensation can be traced to some muscles contracting or, you know, your stomach reading or acid or something like that. But not all of them. A lot of them, you know, the the the not and the pit if stomach, there is nothing ph physiological anatomical that can account for it, but is a sensation that you experience consciously associated with certain kind of emotions.

So every emotion has its physical component. And then every component every motion it's mental come combined. Sometimes we have the feeling the feeling of anxiety, even though we don't know what it's speak, we feel anxious. But then the second times, so we don't even feel anxious, but the body that we access so we're anxious. And you know, the emotion is there. It'll show up first in the body. And that's this is what you're talking about. All these emotional reactions they show up first in the body.

You have one whole part of your nervous system. Smells autonomic nervous, very sympathetic and sympathetic nerves. And it's regulated by structures in the brainstem and the fall. And they also those same centers can also affect skeletal muscles. So you can develop tension here or or constriction here or something like that. And the emotional centers you brain treated the activity and it's just like that. You know? That's why line detectors were. They because you measured gal skin response. But changes galvanized standard response is that in micro seconds, You know, when somebody asks you question, and you say you make an answer that you're not comfortable with in micro seconds.

Your skin more sweat. Any skill amount of scrap, just enough so that the electricity passes between electrodes more quickly, you know, in the person reading of. I don't think you're being quite honest. You know? That's how fast it is. But the the emotional part to be consciously aware of it that kinda, like behind. And we can suppress that. And you got one part of your mind that wants to move to you new Your? Another part of your mind. That thinks that's the worst thing that possible happen. There could be a third part in your mind that is gonna do absolutely anything is power to keep this from becoming conscious.

It's to bring this conflict in the open. All it's concerned about is not allowing this concept to become come on into the open. I was interested in how, you know, like, an emotion arises and then you know, people attribute, you know, quote this and that Mh. So and they may not be linked to tall. You know I have Well, yeah, They try to make the cause in the effect. Okay. And it's like they you know, I'm mean to me it's fascinating how you know, or have anxiety, oh then Good oh, I knew, you know, that you caused this but this...

You know, they see a sequence but that, you know, they... The anxiety is just free floating and they wanna nail it. Well that I find it, you know... That is a very important thing, especially when we become aware of it and can do something about we'll have emotion, like anxiety, that's due to some seen cause. And our mind is called con confederation. That's a that's actually a medical term and population. The line will con an explanation and blame some circumstance blame some person for the anxiety feel absolutely Nothing do it.

Yeah. Good you I think at all. Anxiety he's there. For some buried thing, it's not involving under consciousness you just like to mock this whole thing. The wonderful thing in meditation is this stuff starts to become clear. On the one hand, that very deep stuff. When when you're mine starts they can't calm? Oh it just starts to come up, and it's there, you know? And you can try to drive her way, which is not a good idea. Because it's a wonderful opportunity to confront it and deal with it. Mh. But stuff stuff just comes up.

The only thing that happens is that you're sitting there meditating and motion say? Or i. You. And because you're being mindful, instead of confederation. Like, if maybe you were busy from dinner and this came out, you'd make up a story because that it's because of that stupid news show you're watching out television and all the things are they're saying make you feel anxious. You know, that's. And meditation instead of. It's like, wow, where is that coming from? So you sit there and wait and you look for look at the do you allow the sensations of things Anxiety to be there and the feeling of anxiety?

And and then gradually, it starts to come clear just what it's about So is that actually the step where you become more conscious of about this subconscious mind when those survival met parents come up those fight and flight things in situations like she described or some to get to think you have long dealt with and and then it comes up because you get into a deeper you you always said the brain is like this and then there's this little on on top of the consciousness soon as we are really taking more into the subconscious bring That's right.

The the way that I would picture it, and this is this is how I picture it. It is that It's like the part you're conscious of... It's, like, great big dark area. And here's the one light bulb. As the light will get stronger and on or brighter or brighter the light spreads gonna lower and more. and at the same time, as what's happening in the here gets really quiet, then stuff starts the migrate charges. So it's had both the light is disease is penetrating more deeply. And the contacts started moving out towards the light.

And it's an extremely important thing that and one almost two thousand year old text, not so I stuff. Thirteen hundred year old text called the city bog. Called purification of mind. And a meditation is referred to as purification in mind specifically. Development of concentration and awareness in this way. And this is a very important part of the process. You mind becomes purified of all this stuff that you've been carrying around. And and as the mine becomes, then becomes a very. Very a powerful instrument for all kinds of things.

Or being a better person or living to happier your life or understanding the nature reality which company why. We're almost like, a really old computer. It's got all these old programs. It don't work anymore and bog everything down. A very important thing about meditation. Is the wisdom and the understanding that it brings. And On the one hand, I I have... Said, I I used to say more often that I do now. That if there was... If if it was a till, if I had a pill that you could take, and immediately, you could have summit for found concentration.

That I wouldn't give it to you because it would deprive you of the opportunity to learn all the things that you have to learn. On the other hand, what I really do wish I have. Is something that would at least clean up your mind right away of some of the of the rest of that noise so that you could make progress more rapidly. Mh. Alright sort of like, first you have to quiet the monkey mind, the constant knew matter of mind. Then you can start learning the nature of mine and developing insight and understanding.

So it would be nice to have a magic pill or a machine or something Like that sort get you over that first part. Maybe there is. And is that the biggest part? What's that? Is that biggest parts No. It's just the... It's it's it's smallest part, but it's the part right at the beginning. And you have to get past that before all stuff starts. Yeah. And it can take a long time. I mean, in the sense of the biggest part, you could spend a lot of time. Working through that. And once you work through that, then the progress in terms of the new levels of understanding of the new depths of concentration that and the joy and the happiness and the tranquility the medication brings.

That kind all proceed much more quickly. Yeah. So that first part, although it's it's a very tiny part of the whole process can take that can't take a lot of time. And so if it was somebody speed that up, that would be really good. We they didn't over the. Like, What's right? Heading over the head, like, the fifty two. Yeah. Except they... It's it's infamous for people sitting for years and years, and is then all getting hit over the head. We would be quite wonderful. Hence And I have... Like I do have hopes that there might be something like that.

I don't know if you... I'm sure you remember Debbie that you say here or neuro feedback machines. I think, neuro feedback might be something that really helps people to get past that. Initial instability. But I'm a little worried when I see some of the people using Neuro is that They'll feel like... Oh, well, that's it. Now I heard right that there's nothing else to do. Right yeah. Yeah. That right. But that happens in meditation too, especially when people They they get to the point where... you know, then the minds pre calm pretty focus.

They work through a lot of their stuff. They find the happy things of other some there angry. This said you well, you know, what should be better than than this? So that happens with meditation too. That's but it's something that, you know, you do... It's part of the learning process. You're in that place for a while until your type saying. Maybe this isn't the end of the journey. Maybe there is more. Maybe there's new levels joy happiness and love the. I haven't yet tapped into. Seems to me what this conversation is mostly really to in terms of what we heard earlier this evening is the panic attack story.

Has been kind simple like all of the different things that we can work through and education. Just that one thing. That's just the beginning. As how people do have really severe problems, so I can't get that. I know I think else. It's, you know, until they get past that. It's always gonna keep getting in their ready. It's gonna come up because this problem. And now it's fine. Anyone's fine? I just wondering what. I didn't getting a lot of clarity on where he was going his description of those three types of meditation.

Of the... Let's see. They the... What was he trying to say there? Compassion would just a fashion wisdom and focus. Is is that really sense. Yeah. You use the wrong word. You're trying to describe big levels or three types of what stuff? Well, referencing i'm see. They... They're basically three different three different aspects, properties, line, that can be trained. Most of the time, it's it's really nice to put a third one in there because most of the time, what we hear about is concentration and mindfulness.

You know, which is... I mean, wisdom medication is not a debt. All medication is wisdom meditation in terms of leading to that. But they mindful awareness to... And learning to investigate and examine your own mind and examine reality. That's what he's referring to as wisdom meditation, and that's what's referred to as insight meditation or with, you know, mindfulness practice and so forth. Focus of course refers to concentration developing sc of attachments. And these two really have to go together.

They're too often treated as so. You can choose A or v, you know, and you mh drive a four you can try that outside or mercedes, you know, or take your try set. Can go by plane, you can go by chain and that's not true. They go together. The similarly of the two wings that he gave, What that comes from and the scriptures is similarly the the two wings lead to enlightenment are concentration focus and mindfulness inside. So summertime or passing are the two ways. And so some passing is what he was translating in English has focused to wisdom him.

The third was compassion. And that's the one that deserves more attention than typically receives an I guilty of that as any other meditation teacher. I know. We don't speak enough about the issue of compassion. It is related to the issue of wisdom. As we gain wisdom, we become more compassionate. It's inevitable. You can't you can acquire wisdom without compassion because, you know, it's like, having a hit side of a coin i'm not having the tail we go to together. But in terms of the cultivation of it.

Compassion can be consciously deliberately cultivated in doing natural kindness medication. And and practiced in your life and it's important to do that. Because as far as acquiring the highest wisdom, which is understanding to emptiness of self and amp of things of i you perceive it. The practice of compassion prepares the mind and allows the line to achieve but find it. But was... If we don't practice compassion, we remain to the self. Mh And then we either can't see the truth of the emptiness of self or when we catch a glimpse of it, it's terrifying to us and painful.

So the practice of the compassion is really important title. You know? I'll know if anything that flies some three wings, but. Oh. It's the damn. Yeah. Rudder. Two lanes in the rudder. Actually that's good okay okay. Got it. Compassion. Fashion has the router. Compassion allows us to practice not being attached or so to practice seeing ourselves in another to practice, feeling another being suffering to practice acting for the benefit of others acting for the benefit ourselves. And this this this opens the mind up.

And it also provides the direction. So... Yeah. That's what he was referring to. As focused with a compassion is what we would usually say is San with Fast nine etcetera. And so it is is it nor? Is it chopped in cold wisdom really? Not sure. Is that a first two? No. I Well I mean, depends on when you mean by Austin. Translating in into and to english translate any understanding and to English. Wisdom is a equivalent to insight, basically. Oh And and we very much inherited the southeast Asian like separation of insight us from concentration, some that's gone.

And And so that's why, you know, that's why there is this appearance separation, but inside and wisdom done essentially it is through insight that that the ultimate wisdom that's achieved. Practice and insight. Best wisdom matter station. When you have sufficient stability and clarity of mine that you can examine your mind company to understand its nature and examine your experience of the world and reality and begin to understand it that that is inside and that's the insight that leads to us son.

Mh. But it's not linear. Right? It's like, always with each other and... Perhaps... You to this first, and then you do this and then you become wise. So is all... Right. That's right. You know, it it it has to be can't woven ultimately. Although you could start out just practicing concentration. And ignoring all the delightful lessons that your mind is presenting you along way, And people do that. People say, you know, this is practice I'm doing it. And the mine behaves in a particular way. Instead of looking at it and say, well, so that's part of how my my behaves.

They just you know well, that's not part of my project here. So therefore to harder on making things. You know, and you can you can develop a powerful concentration without really having insight at all. And then, once you got power concentration, you could say, okay. Well, tomorrow morning, I started out fax. Inside and you can started practicing those kinds practices and then the insight will come, But it makes far more sense that, you know, if you pay attention from the beginning, you're going to... you know, they're going to develop together.

Some people have some people will find easier to develop concentration and maybe the concentration will out place the insight some degree. Other people may more of predisposed than, you know, having the insight and still having to struggle lithium the time of my But ultimately, the progress requires, that they both be there. Yeah. Last time you talked about this... You feel you have done it? You have... You have achieved a certain concentration and who don't know where goes to you cited about talking about doubts last.

Okay. That reminds me in terms of when you don't integrate all the other parts you come to something here so what. You know? That's right. And if you don't inter we meet with everything you experience during that process. Okay. Then you get all the richness and you have the deal, of course, with more stuff, but that's also part of the the experience and isn't that you know? That's. Yeah. And, you know, it's not at all unusual in some of these practice. Get to the point where their mind is really still and clear.

And i all the things have they thought they would never be able to do and and they're really wonderful chlorine in the achievement. And so they do this. Day after day and week after week, And then finally, one day is sync. What's the point? What's the point? Sitting here with my mind empty of anything for an hour every day. Yeah. I mean, at first it was really exciting i. Oh I really did it. I got here. You know? Just a new object. Yeah. No logic. But that's the point at which, teachers should say.

Now look at your mind. Yeah. What's happening? Yeah. Because all of us here for you to discover you know, if you'll stop just patti yourself on the back for being able to sit there with empty mind for a while. And and it's a really good thing with somebody gets to that point where the question comes, you know? Mh. What is point. That's hugely important question to ask because... Because there is the answer. Yeah. Yeah. Of personally when asked the question, the mind was asking the question is suggesting that maybe there isn't one That's that's why I say important gonna go to the teachers so a teacher can say.

Oh, what is the define here well. Let me point out the point. Those this has been a nice little discussion. Thank you very much for coming back here and creating the opportunity for this. And she or haven't been nikita do.

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