The Mind Illuminated archive

TCMC 22 April 2010 Part 2



Automated transcription

Yes. So bear good supposed word the cards, dogs marching. Okay. Good. So No usage. Yeah. But what what meditation is about is First of all, i I I guess you could say establishing a certain degree of control over the activities of you're mind. And discovery. And also calming and quiet in on. It probably noticed your mind as full there's an awful lot of stuff that this clearly isn't contributing being much choices And the sad thing is that all that other stuff going out and on is standing in the way of what you could be.

Dan with your mind at the awareness. And understand that it could be rose to that. Okay. So Now, first thing I'll give you is there forget any ideas that you're going to force your mind to stop producing these thoughts. That. The only thing that he really have much direct control over in terms of the behavior of your mind. Is where you direct your attention? And so that's... So that's what I'd like you to do as far as his meditation. So you need... If you're gonna control the direction of your attention modem you need something to drift your attention towards.

And so. What I recommend that you use is the sensations that are produced around the area of your nose. Has the air enter enters leisure volume? I i sent people to say meditate on your underground. But you're not really meditating on your. Just those sensations that you feel. And maybe caused by the graph. But investigate those sensations to try to keep your attention on that. And your mind, you will forget what you're and they're blank little longer. That be all kinds of other things going on mind at the same time.

But every time you kind of aware that you no longer observing the sensations of graph. Just can't great nearby back too that. Okay. So the first thing that you'll discover is that your mind is is very active in the sensor day followed of lots and memories and feelings and things like that. And the other thing you'll notice is is a very strong tendency for your attention to move from one time turn i would would be attracted by some thought comes out or he'll know hear a sound and then make you think you you'll have this thoughts.

Then what's going to happen is that you're gonna start out paying attention to your graph and you're discovery. You're suddenly going be discovery that you have forgot what you're doing and you haven't been paying attention your threshold period time. And what's happened is a series of things. First of all, one of those distractions caught your attention. And your mind, your attention was on that distraction, walked enough, but you forgot what you were down. So the first thing happens is you got to distracted the second thing is you forgot what you doing.

And then the third time that happen is when you're finished with that distraction, since it forgot what it was going to do, went went onto something that was sending something else or something else, and that's told my blonde there. Okay. So. Yeah. Okay. Everybody... Who me start how they do. That's completely normal. And what what you're going to do though is when you realize if you have that your mind just been wandering. First of all, don't be upset that you're mind wanted. That's going to happen.

Secondly, be happy about fact you realize your mind as one. And douglas, that in that state of... I'm not doing i intended to do you're hard awake in order where you're more fully present, than you were i know before mean lost in and thought. So now there words positively for set. So it'd be more likely to better to see a client respond. K Then after you have taken them moment to appreciate that enhanced the degree how awareness has and alert. Gently bring your attention back to the sensations of.

And try to sustain as long as you can that sense of awareness that that you're now in enjoying are being in the present knowing or detailing. And and now in the case of now you redirected your attention to the rep? Knowing that you're doing or you're supposed to be? And if you keep now after the while, you begin to notice more and more quickly. Until, you know, the period that mine laundering gets shirt, then maybe you'll notice even before the line is wondered, you have forgotten what here day.

But not so long that you're wanting to start taking us a little journey from here to there in the next exploit. And then after a while Gonna get to the point where it's you'll notice, sometimes your notice that you're line that you've been distracted and you're about to forget put your low in time to redirect your attention to authority that. So just do that for a while and then come back and we'll talk some more that gets you started. Well you after though is just to stabilize your mind. So it's not loading around how slightly anymore.

And also to increase the level of your awareness. Is the two main things that here that are going to come out this. And then as a result of stabilizing your line, you're gonna find that fewer thoughts. Until basically you'll find I actually your way. Yeah or maybe i'm very subtle at and start figuring. K. And enjoy that call. When you're sitting there, your mind search feel common like is burn to be nice. And it's good to acknowledge that I internally and appreciate it. It it reinforces the whole process.

I I wish you ask this before we sat. You could sit down right now. Minutes back to. Hopefully, you can know that all of you so tomorrow. And try to try to do this for the next week or or two, at least maybe twenty minutes or half an hour a day. Okay. Alright. Yeah. Anyway else glad to hear from someone else. Yes. I have a question. This is kind of in comment and it's kind involved dave. So I don't know if we wanna stay on what we're talking about before, but it's in my mind it kind of it kind of follows that a little bit.

I mean and something speak to you. So we have... We had the cream there on meditation there's is meeting you. Yeah my mona and she's a meditation nurse researcher. Yeah. And her presentation very had to talk afterwards, but we've turned the topic of these different varieties of them after enlightenment experiences kind of post experiences that people have And she had had an experience about three years ago. And she basically lost any identification with her herself as will be And... And she mentioned something that I've heard before now, a few times, which was that She went into this very dispersed state for really long time.

Which kind of state? Discourse. That's great. Kind of dark disillusioned. Yeah. She described it as feeling like she was walking through the holocaust. Like, post holocaust. Yeah. And the conversation was really interesting and, like, horribly story. Because I heard somebody else. I didn't really like it was... I heard somebody else mention this experience where just and I talked to you about a little bit too where they just felt as opposed to feeling liberated, it was almost like they describe it as kinda of just sleep grade detachment.

And and sense of loss of center, but do not have a sense some, like, expense in this won this. And she's talked to a lot of people now she's even surveying people because in where she's serving people that she meets and conferences that I've had this experience and it's a prevalent that I would have thought. And people talk about it taking, like, decades or sometimes. To integrate these experiences that they have and And I'm curious because I I've... I mean, I've heard you speak to it a little bit, but I've highly heard pending teacher talking about I like that.

And then all a sudden she's saying teachers will be oh, yeah. You've got ten or twenty years now to deal with this. And they're like, in no certain terms and and so I know let's... I mean yes. I mean not obviously work I but it also basic question of, you know, what's real benefit. She said she's glad. She's done at now because it's three years She actually said she doesn't know if she can recommend people following this path. They have the choice to get off of it. They not at a certain point the part of the danger Suicide.

She actually... They said that's very real danger. And I know you've talked you read about that. It's really down subject. What he's... What she went through actually, I met her and talk her she box she's like not two years ago which she was here. She was right in the Thursday and declared miserable. These are... In in terms of the buddhist tradition they're called the Du. Beyond means knowledge and du means where we he's suffering dissatisfaction So not that you're suffering. And there's actually they're broken down and and what classical description of they're broken down into the knowledge of fear and all your misery knowledge discussed.

And yes... And in the classical descriptions, is something that would work through in meditation retreat. Part of the process. Now these the way these manifest is practice the pendant. It depends on the style and kind of practice you do. And these very long periods was she experienced and what other... I guess the she's talked or talking about. This is something that happens with lay people who don't have their opportunity to do a or and get through these. So... I'm not sure what to address about this first.

I heard how does she shared with you? She's not sure if she would not gonna understand anybody. I I don't recommend it to people necessarily. Although many people have been through that process. It's not necessary. The Duke and are quite understandable. Well. If you you know, if she consider what's going on. It's not such a big topic. Okay. I ever been restrained or back the and try again what were talking about sort of. Okay. And just see. Yeah. You were saying it seemed to me that this was the entering the state was somewhat intentional.

This is something if you do a kind of insight practice without the development of summertime. You you get insight into the imp of things after of things. At a deep level in your mind, really at a sub subconscious thought was started with. Your mind knows where this is going. And what is spelling is the the confrontation and recognition of the emptiness of self. And coupled to that and what makes it really sort of despair and inspiring for people, especially if they get to this point, memory, retreats other and They go back to work.

Is everything sent totally meaningless because They've seen that everything is in permanent. They've seen that all the value judgment say tests thing are empty projections of their mind. And so now that that, you know, my my life is meaningless, my relationships meaning with my job this meaning month. Career meaningless that i wife all of the suffering and to to claim tv was meaning that stuff is only in like, more suffering, but my mind cleans anyway. And mean like what to do about. And so it'd miserable kind to get into.

When year into to a dry inside practice, it's going to leak to us. Because matter any and insert practice is going too. Leads here, which is the difference between approaching these insights. It it has to do with how your approach answered. So I think there's two major things that make the difference. One is the if you have san, which is basically we can define san as a profound state of joy tranquility. If your mind is in the state of san tunnel, when it confronts these shocking truths? It's not that traumatic at all.

Secondly, is if you can develop, pay, really clear understanding and what not self or on. Then They you know where you're going And side? Such shock such as surprise. So much of the plane that first experience is is doomed. It's the transition and the transformation it leads to when you give off your attachment to view personal cell. Is is and can be very much like dying. I mean, why right for of time? Said you're gonna die and your mind's reaction to it is on my annihilation of myself, b you know, land.

And and brief out to the surface all all that cleaned me to well. So When the mind confronts that, it all depends on how well the line is to experience sad. I understand that. If you understand emptiness of things, and what the idea of anti emptiness sit so cheating online projecting all of this anyway. And then it's not so surprising that, you know, well this sense of stuff I have and all the ideas stuff, they're all part of the same projection. If you've already become familiar with that, if you thought about that, if in your meditation, you've had a lot of experiences of recognizing that seth an idea sometimes there and sometimes it's not it's about a mental foundation.

It's a concept. Self is a feeling. And every time I look forward the feeling is this other times of my experience, says like there. You know, all of these things prepare the on ways, so you don't have to go through stand quite such a turn that recording. But some people have historically considered it as a shortcut time. We're rough and touch regulated we just dive right in. Duke it down his your we count. Is a better choice to go and those at some point, if you're driving thinking... Well because she described it is very like, I know she was...

Situation. Very spontaneous. She wasn't Yeah. Near you if he he reached point near back this and it comes up. And once it comes up, there's not a lot he can do. Although it it's called the rolling app that stage, some people deal with it pretty successfully. What they typically is a typical scenario. Somebody gets the different it really rocks some other foundations and then they aren't eagerly treat or, you know, the you there's retreat over and there still duke depending, you know, how of deal with.

Very classic what doing is. They go up and it for a lot of entertainment, alcohol food the sex. And they just immerse themselves until the my gets all of the stuff and gets right back and to the old familiar three. Alright? Sounds painful. And yeah know, and and very often they'll say. That's it for me not our organization, but after yeah after a certain period of time they're white video go back. So that's why I called the rolling the that space. People will leave even in the middle retreat. I know get to.

I not the diff. I'm gonna go out have myself a dinner into the bar. And see I can compared down. I echo go out of the atmosphere. And I mean, it sounds pretty like if we have no control over what comes up for us then in a deep state, you know, that could come up for any of us at any time. Potentially and it... Oh okay. So let's just start out logs and remember, you know, Yeah. Come up for... It could come up for you at any time it's most likely gonna come up for you only if you're doing certain kinds of practices that to lead you to to that.

Kinda was saying She wasn't he practicing. And that actual experience happened. Yeah. I don't know what probably issues is Right. Well, she was she was standing... As as how recall, she was doing back inside practice. And and this is this is what Can you do this practice, you to have insights and the insights are into that there is nothing that you can claim to. Does constantly is changing? Inside number one improvements. But it's imp is not just the things don't glass. It's even scarier than that.

It's that things are changing before our very high. And in that experience, when you... The meditation, causes you to have we experience of even recognizing that you're on the the transient and improvements to around medical foundations. And so you get inside to imp so you get some insight into. You get insight into as I say, suffering insight is to basically that if everything is in front of that, anything you try to think to is only gonna car. And if you if everything is a projection of your mind and the results of your own the conditioning of your mind, and all of your hopes and desires and i and everything else, you know, are are doomed only lead to suffering because you're like thinking to things on a train.

You know, can't hold on people. But the the thing is that in this process of seeing your own your own military conscious arising and dissolving. Your mind starts to suspect. The the truth, which is that this... That itself is just a construct of mind. And there is no substantial element to right. And that's very frightening. But you don't you might recognize it consciously and say, wow. I see. This is what this is what those darn the teachers we're were talking about. But also, it might not register.

It's like Wow. They're rising passing away. Oh wow. And then you go away and so subconsciously, your mind's putting this together. And getting quite worried to about it. And i'm sorry to react. It's a very interesting thing what is going on here. Your mind is inherently predisposed to generate this concept yourself. That appears to be permanent abiding the same self. And very, very separate and the separate is extremely... you know, you've heard had say as many times and don't, really recognize it.

The worst... The what makes the self concept. So Conducive to suffering is that it is a notion of separate that the mine creates a boundary inside it, which is i mine and outside of it is everything else. Whole universe. And and that's the most ins insidious thing about it, but our minds are pre predisposed to do that. Because it was nature's marvelous invention to create mines that did this because you know, if it led to things like ourselves. There's this thing. On the left again. We're barn pretty predisposed, strong like super superstar pre boats they have this perception or so.

We are also born with the kinds of brains that can predict the feature and and see things on a larger context. So we're in sort of a touchy situation here. Because here we are our our brain is con itself as a self. And our brain can also forecast that the long term features for this stuff is not very good. What happens in these meditation practices is it's worse than that. The short term future is not very good either. At least in terms of clinging tubing. We're trying to move the mind into a different state.

And do i think that's wonderful fault is if is possible for the wiring to go in this different state. The the fact that it's possible include at all. So as we move out of the comfortable state, it becomes very very uncomfortable. And that doesn't really change until the line discovers a new stable state. That it can reside it. And so how the transition is negotiated is really what we're talking about here. Out of the one state state, which isn't all that good because involves a lot of suffering non happiness and leads to do a lot.

Thanks to create more suffering and an happiness productivity people as well. But we have to shift the money out of that that one stable say of functioning where and and and answer completely new. Say in that transformation is we're all of the duke out from. Is you're anything up The mod is doing a very radical and very fundamental reorganization of its perception of reality. Yes. This what John God was talking about? Is this is what Is this with John Card was talking about and that... I I forget the term it was like, night of darkness Staying farming.

I think yeah. Strong. It's exactly go he talking about. Yeah. Sorry about the dark energy results. The dark census and the dark knight out of the of the spirit. So that's exactly what he's talking about. This is also practice which is related to me to go who up the them in terms of the journey to go through all these spaces, or terror and and threatening whatever before you are purified and moving on that's a choice. If you want to if you want to go that loud. Definitely, the description and tibetan book of the is related.

You know what. You're back to Saudi Okay. Yes. Well, presumably you went through the of the whole and you're, you know, and so you can tell it that it's okay it'll pass. Yeah. Sure. Absolutely, and they can't be more or less painful. And I'm I'm mean encourage you to take the path, but just she last her out. Oh, well I lost it. Oh, that was it. Well, partly what you were saying let's say like, if people don't have a a relationship of teacher line i experience. So it's kinda much more difficult. So if you are pioneer, go to this, I told it should make it not here computer or find pictures and kind of.

Yeah. You should you should try to find somebody that you can discuss any you feel really to develop discuss error. You might might have to approach my one person. But hopefully, hopefully, you'll have the guidance of a teacher. You see to reach this point is quite an accomplishment. And so hopefully, you'll already have a guidance that a teacher And and the teacher will be able to continue to go jazz. But as I say, how how difficult and how is is a lot of variation in that? Tremendous amount of radiation.

There's some people that make this transition without even knowing if they made it. I know in my whole life. I can't thinking about what it means to not Self and and I keep thinking out what means. I mean, it it's... It makes me wonder every time I enjoy something whether I would be enjoying you know or or what... You know, I keep asking me myself I and i I'm enjoying this. But in my you grasping. Am I gonna want this again, And it's already, you know, just the understanding that you've talked about already has changed that way had to think.

So... And and part of me is is scared by the whole thing on I mean, I think something in Our brain very afraid of nothing. And and had some experience in agreement. And it was mostly like, over than that interesting Well, I didn't I don't feel like I was something, but I left this fear of the future, what i forget about because I. That. The when when it's happened been well what I'm making gonna pay. And so I guess I could just let all let go. That that's. Well I'm really glad to hear that you're examining those experiences and and that you're asking the right question, there's nothing wrong with enjoying them.

But the question is, you know, clinton, grass. Is is there a kind of delight taking place that, you know, is drawing me and is keeping me bound to the same illusion. Because there's nothing inherently wrong with Enjoyment which is pleasurable role. As long as you're not you took. And you will be grasping to it. And as matter fact, the iv is not to look to see if there's grasping and then sc yourself if through is or try to stop it. Their okay There's no point sc yourself. There will be egress back.

Absolutely. Certainty. They will be perfect, you know, and and tell you and tell you're you've made certain transitions, there will be. So accept that the idea to see it. You know, to have that. Aha. There's the grass bay. Yeah. It's... Well, I I get a lot of opportunity to see it because I have the yeah. And she's so delightful. Here she's about eight months old and she's just charming. And I just... you know, I. I think about you know, she's changing. Remember she's changing. She's not stay at this same.

Yeah. So So I just trying to enjoy why. Where... I know the other question. So anybody Else still have one no. Yes. That's ask your question, but the tar reminded via traumatic experience I have a lot time up and like over forty years ago. I had I taken an Lsd Mh. And I was reading my part. I don't remember. Kathy think was said one of the talks of destruction and something like. Anyway, there was a grade spreadsheet or was surprised. Ego was the and with being carrie different russian river granted to felt brain and some sad.

And Out it. The sadness was my expressing The fact that it it it was it was lost in this regular river Christ not the substantial did not occupy the substantial place but that it was accustomed too. And you know, you know, I'm not I'm not continuous taking I scene. But even then had in those days in nineteen sixty six, it was the hadn't been commercialized virtualized and recreational. Drug something that you know instead up learning something. Yeah. Actually, I did something. But but, you know, I can appreciate his guys sent three and all that they he to disturb let me go.

Mh. If... And i... That's why you were having an insight into. The the to the in of Behavior, And one of the things in those days, neil was not recommended to being able see the without guide of anything to. It is right. I don't know. I I'm not sure dealing yourself and meditation been in no long know through the moment. That's having the guide as it is useful to investigating things that are really inside we power. Yeah. It's useful in many ways. Turn by. Did you guys something you wanna it it was kind question it was a little more pointed.

I wanted to ask you if you could share with us what you're experience of these I can't remember the term of going through the doctor. K. Well, my experience have it checked the form of the the series of wife series of plateau and Understanding. And during that period, i was doing mostly out practice. And the thing a very deep Jonas, absorption. And the thinking about doing that kind of practice is the that the the sergeant taught joy and tranquility and act, or just took out twenty four hour a day screaming answer.

And so There here are the reactions that your mind makes, but I wasn't particularly attached to those as self. There were just reactions that my mind was was making. And my mind was also joyful on a front of. And so it wasn't... It wasn't very difficult it this more. It was more that you know, the effort to get to a particular level of understanding at that getting used to that and get sufficiently used to that to my practice with them take on a new intensity and and another it used to that So I did not have the kind of experience that will be to and there some other friends bought their that.

And the only thing about the dick there's no guarantee that's gonna take you to straight entry. Only if you stick with it. And only if you stick with it and in the right hand environment. And you you can end up stacking the on for months or years. And unless you're life miserable. And then what happens is you your mind just kinda goes back to it. It's already anybody it goes back to that other single state that he started in. So doesn't a completely transition? Yes. So those aren't the product that you did...

No. No. No. They proceed. The as a very fact du depending on. The proceed strain entry, you'd have to get through those there's a period of recollection and determination where you know, basically, alright. Now that I understood the way things really are, and I've accept to things here are. The only choice I have now. Is to go back into my practice and just, you know, go for. And then if you do that, Then S Todd will develop. As a matter of fact, far as I know, there is no string entry without Traumatized towers and media.

It's just that in that particular approach, the duke canal kind of before the shopping rather than the shower telephone you Lived drive repository right. Like yeah practice, that you still go through that. He's still the about on. That's right. There's a stage is called knowledge we've towards formation. And it has all of the turn quality and that you need... Is matter the ingredients or for stream entry or are you have to have profound understanding of insights and you have to have. So that's those are the ingredients.

In the process of the Due depending your acquiring because you don't have that aircraft and it's not until you do have some the top. And as Shown a top practitioners or supposed to other the way around. They have the and the joy and drink quality. Which continues to deepen. The continues to deepen as the insights screwed up. Is is there restoring so does or red later but about... Thought... I thought maybe you should have this a heard somewhere a while back about the doing coming in cross wondering b groups who were this kind of nihilism we're talking about what is these really fatal terms And it was...

The whole details are really passionate, but this reminded me of it and then he was explaining to them that they needed They needed within and they needed the the compassion. And that doubt this is being read they're missing and not be ability just type nihilism that there any torn or Is it... Am i is that something you brought that before? But it's certainly true. I don't recall talking to up that, but it's it is absolutely correct. Yeah. I think that's one of the things, you know, there are some pitfalls on the path.

And neo this one of them. If you know, you you get to the point of recognizing everything empty and that even the self is empty And you it can become very realistic. This is not to get close to. Yes. To have, do you have to have joy list those stages before, or can you is Well, no you can you see has two sources. They're how do we describe it as the e of Summit and the community of insight. The of Sa developed because The line is in a state. And and that and it's a induced Joy. It's not a joy that comes from, you know, some gratification and work.

It's internal. And so because the mind has joy that is internally generated. It becomes relatively independent of external sources of joy. And at the same time, it develops a strong independence of external sources of pain and discontent. And so that produces and non the reactivity. And so the deeper and the longer you are in a state challenge how the board of the mine becomes non reactive to external pleasures in external pain. So external sources of happiness and external sources of joy. So that's the joy of Sean.

But that's the community of Sean. Insight produces its own because... Then this is in response to the things that you experience. As you come to understand permanent of you has and suffering? Those suffering accounts are pointing to what is apartment. Naturally, but my cease to react to pleasant and unpleasant in some way. So this is it's it's an that comes from our different source. What you need what what you have at point, a stream actually is both pines of. If you've got the inside, you got the inside.

If you've got san got the and the z. Assignment talk. A really strong community for a both sorts. And I forgot rush was. Join credit predecessor that equity many is it... I mean, you can you have some can you have minute with that? Not having... You know, and not have joy. Like it's... This. Joy can take different forms and different people. As. Some people have different emotional set points. And The sun people are very prone to energetic bubbling over joyful kinds of states. And they may experience United Or of kin with a lot of might on for a long time as a matter of fact for that kind of person.

That be often. There is a period where it's a it's an obstacle. I'm this all this energetic job. They sit down the meditate. Good carried away, but i gonna get excited and and the excitement of next encounter from the see something by. And takes not while we get get oh good. But never but needless say they have a lot of fun really like Then the kind person. Yeah. Choice brief bursts. Eli, but it carries use a lot more of the tranquility and stranded of it right don't it beginning. And this just seems to be like the way we're not different.

Emotional set. Some people are more joy prone and Other people. There joey comes at smaller doses and it's less intense, but it leads to the same place. It leads to that same sense of independence from external sources of pleasure. Speak because I'm reading a book called practicing the Jon and so the parts of thing that... To the different stages of d. With them different characteristics. So and so, you know, in the somewhat practice is different yet from that or it's Jean decisions gone on practice.

So just wondering if it's all kind of the same stages within the not practice. Thank thank. Eric you you can go into John at... You know, with with the ten stages of assignments time you it seems that you can go to the Job as early as the six stage, but they're a very light gentlemen. But anywhere, anywhere certainly from the seventh stage on, you can go into the towers. Now stage is seven through ten, actually sort of recap the progression through the the genres themselves, because and eight the majority become very intense.

And then in mind, you start the east in the ten the the joy the intensity to The Hr subside and it's primarily, we try the. You very similar to what happens as you go through the gentleman where The first Gen is characterized by, you know, directed and sustained attention plus joy plus plus pleasure happening as su. And then you you go the second where there's no longer directed to sustained attention, but there's still lots of joy lots of. This is very much like the what what what happens in the progression through seven eight in the United states.

And then the third john, you kinda get passed all of joy and here left fucking a happiness next to pleasure. Yeah. Which is very much like what's happening in the night States. And then you get to the fourth China and your past you know, you you'd let go of of the of the Su as well and you're in state profound clarity. So the progress of Sabotage, bears a lot of similarity to legitimate and one point in discussions with other people with some confusion about this. But in the, all of these things are intensified in the genre itself.

So in some practice without the absorption. The joy you feel can be very intense, but however, intensive it is without absorption it's going be more intense with the absorption. And both in both and non practice and practice is a point where you learn to just let go of all this those energy in this simulation this new florida yeah. And just the sound got to that you're teaching. Though, I mean, if you're going deeper, you're going to go into the Jaw, I mean, john is just in a state of absorption right.

So okay That's right. If you... The tenth stage you've gone through the. Alright When you get to the tenth stage, you have gone something down through something very similar to the like john this already. But not necessarily with the saying not with the actual absorption. The the absorption has very single point it's very fixed focus. And you don't need to do... You don't need to go and let as a matter fact from the eight stage on, you can enjoy, you know, because concentration is effortless was You can join a lot of lot more freedom movement of my So What okay?

It's not necessary. In order to gain... No. John is quite necessary or entry, they're not necessary. The the of summertime practice, which need began to experience, you know, in in the earlier part of the last few stages is sufficient and people can can chief statement string entry, you know, that going a chance state. Although they will most likely continue on and and at master Sabotage shortly after because was you he that The stream entry experience, that it takes form, but what they call moderate power up, have path to sort of, you know, But like my experience that he her development very books and things like that.

Doesn't always take that front or if it takes that for. That is absorption. They're going to a immediate profound absorption for a period of time. Well it's thirty seconds or twenty minutes or something like that. And that makes it a lot easier for your mind to go into absorption states later on. So so you don't need you don't need either the full development not or for the experience of Pajamas or stream entry, although keep on deep your practice and and kinda make it easier to happen. But once you've had screen that, then you're gonna...

It's gonna to be much easier just continue english on my and practice on the practice. I Am I making fifth how they work to together. Good. Yes. Just let's let's steer the same discussion know a little bit more towards what we we were talking about earlier. Okay. Because what is this string? Yeah. So how many of you since last week or the last time I saw here? Has your mind generated a state of suffering? Yep. Yeah. Since struggle. All of these things. No. Ask. Yeah. You write recognize that these are Sorry.

You recognize that these are mind generated states totally the. They're not something that has and reality independent of the line. You know, suffering in mind based suffering, if what's itself is suffering Well, the the human seems to last so much less because the awareness that it is generated bottom in line there for me along with the feeling. Yeah. So it doesn't. Yes. Yeah. Goes what. Great. Okay. Yes. I I I like small plateau name. I mean, I I think have sense call and I'm not expecting i'm she maybe it's in rights that you were saying i'm but but then it seems like I can depend another hard on.

And and slowed down the snap again, and feel like, you know, I was where I on the? Mh. So I... But I I'm not so far back Mh. Yeah. But the emotions... I I'm set point emotions i over. I don't know if I cannot but I I did find my emotions. Mh. And I heard when I was coming in you were talking about. Versus in the sea has versus accepted and I heard that it's important just some apt and I I was wondering which she clarified what you mean by you what I was talking about specifically earlier was that the idea of exceptions and wasn't that you'd become passive.

And that shit happens and he just surrendered it what. You know I mean, he's still and I used they... I I I sort introduce that whole discussion and on everyone of the the eight prayer that, you know, giving me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change. And i encourage to change things. I can change it and wisdom to know the difference. So, you know, there are some circumstances where the only action that's appropriate is that of that internal action of observing your your experiences with mindful of.

But there are many many other circumstances where the of kind action that you can take some positive appropriate action too. Change situation for your benefit or even more importantly for the benefit of others. And you should do that rather than surrender passively to whatever the five it is. That's why It's not about taking action. Okay. So I didn't explain that we need to recognize our feelings rather than, you know, putting the breeze along them more. K. And there's this to just die in like it's something big pool and...

But and then there's the fear of trying to and just putting it out there. But it's a good challenge to to screw that beer and then just try something just red like saying conway like I feel and then she's wait for the response. And but it's usually rewarding you know, when you can't well you can interrupt that process of diving into your notions of being immersed with them and identifying them. And and instead introduce some objectivity and so simple bond judgment von. It's wonderful As well. Worth it.

But not easy see. Observation. You're so right. Been just be in that state where I can buy in your. But there's again, it's my. I just yeah. That's exactly what it is is you do conditioning. That's right. And that's that's what we're all dealing with is all the conditioning we bring with us into the present moment, which the determines how how the mind reacts to those circumstances in the moment. And we can do And and and what I've heard from some of you just in the last few minutes is that, yes you're discovering how The wonderful changes that you can make in your life by learning how that conditioning works and learning to to produce a different kind of condition or positive it's beneficial kind of condition.

Rather than succumb to your your task conditioning. But what I want to lead you to here in this discussion tying it to, i guess... Can you imagine what it would be like if your mind no longer generated those kinds of emotional reactions. K. It's under. Mh. Would that be absolutely monthly? K. That's where we're trying to pick up. Okay. When you're in your real self, yeah. And you're aware, that that font feeling behavior is not the true you. Mh There is relief from that. There is. Right. Yeah. And it and it can be observed.

I mean, one can be aware of it mh. And yet not subject to it. Yeah. Yeah. The place where we want to get to it's on like that. I know. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So you can imagine that now. Or where do we want to get? The of the four stages and like my in the third state You are completely free Those emotional states that are generated as a result of creating desire version. And first back backtrack little here, we spent a few weeks talking about Buddhist is teaching of for nobel truth. First is recognizing the nature of suffering.

Second is recognizing that desire and urgent. Are what generates so anyway. So Those are say and enlightenment my... You're free. You're completely free of that kind of stuff from now on. That has something changed in the way your mind works. In your mind. Your mind doesn't generate the state or. What's changed? At a deeper level that's changed is is no longer in your mind just no longer generating a comp of desire the version in the same way. And in second stage, I like my, there's still a little bit of and still a little bit suffering, but not very much.

At all. And even in the first stage like, there's a huge difference between getting other suffering that you had it before not after. And the root of the craving is this erroneous relief in a permanent separate self. And so what we're after is to get this mind. To operate in a different way. And and basically, the the For is, if we can un the minds attachment to the view of a self that it has been generated. That is possible to begin to uproot the the cravings that are dependent upon that. Not only dependent upon that they are the inevitable result of it.

A mine that sees itself as separate must experience crave. There's is no other the mind is a very logical machine. And do you think about the logic of it as soon as you introduced the concept of separate then the concept of desire and version as as functional operating mechanisms is absolutely inevitable. So so they go to together. So as you begin to, re restructure the minds perception itself as a permanent separate cell. You make it possible to start un undoing all the conditioning and programming.

About craving, which means that without the compulsions of pre, the line is no longer you're gonna to generate these suffering states. That adapts this these different and emotional states suffering. So this is what we're after. Okay. Now, as the absolute. This is... And actually be wonderful little thing. When it happens in the form of, you know, the mystical experience, how a person describes it afterwards, you know, all i sheets union with God. Now I feel like okay. One was everything all of this is creation and just feel the idea that one that's.

This is this would be a Christian and interpretation. This is whether you're find in San Teresa and John the. Or, you know, you'll find corresponding descriptions. Do this him do different people. Their mind is going to interpret it after the fact according to conditioning But the most important thing isn't how the mine interprets to is the change it produces point. So you know, if it's not if it's not important if you think you saw a god not. It's not important if you think you'd have a direct experience of emptiness or not.

It's none of these ways of describing our important Thing it's barton. Did it change the way your brain works in the way your buying works compared to us it was what it was before? And most practical turns that is the most important. Very go less. We can look at this question of absolute. Do you believe there is an absolute truth? There is and as. The shared line does mind that is rooted in your body. Forget vehicle. Let's. That's it. Let's get these cells out of here. On sp and game very pragmatic terms.

Does the mind that is rooted into your body does get accept the reality of absolutely true. Anybody who does it? I I want there today. You wanted be an absolute chip? Probably would maybe be i'll set pop? Officers is that an absolute trade would it be absolute certainty? Experienced yeah Well, so I mean... We're I'm talking about your mind here. It's absolutely. Doesn't? Your are launching in the ten. You know, way lines work. You're gonna it. Want and actually look for an absolutely... You know, even if it's an absolute uncertainty, they're in a lot of flying and absolutely.

And So that's the mind construct. Yeah. Sas when you're in the real self, it it's not even a question. Well, if we put this outside of the mind, it's not russian. Okay. Yeah. Is this we within the line, the mine's looking for absolute and one of the absolute that it really wants this is the at the absolute truth. And douglas all you relative truth sign want have. Mh. That's the way your minds. That's the where minds work. So If you have an experience, or basically, your mind stops. And that's it's a really good way to describe it.

Mind sucks for a moment. And Yeah somebody says to you. Well, does that your side does that mean that you... Did you go on unconscious? Did you lose consciousness and you'd say No I didn't lose consciousness more like consciousness lost me. So Afterwards your buying is gonna try to find And absolute. And so i call it God, i called emptiness, my father called truth. Is. Blind can't find what it's been looking for. The important thing though is your mind was gonna start functioning in a different way and it has before.

Yes. We talk about cleaning and I'm not sure exactly what that concept is. Mh. But the question that I have is can't you have cleaning both on the material physical level as well as as your heading towards enlightenment like, cleaning to the joyous stage instead of... Yes. Absolutely. Yes i not is... That's very. Right. That's what we do. We claim to the joy when that comes. And and we can even do us through period of time thinking, well, i care is anything else since he did up. That's tough. That's how that's also that's not as the stage of knowledge of what is and is not the path.

I'm figure out just joy and. Maybe it's not the whole story. Maybe who was more it. I think Fred you having a question earlier either You Did. okay. K. Even clinging to the idea of wanting to be enlightened into interferes with it. It doesn't the last one, but it's actually very useful. Right? After getting up to that. Yeah. I know that. Yeah. You know, to desire for like my. Is a desire, but it's not the un kind of desire that we worried about. But what gets in the way is the far the desire takes I mark what.

Exactly. But you can't ever be like. That's her. But that's that's very time to bear. So. The the truth that we're trying to discover. Work. We're cultivating a mind this capable of understanding things at a level that it hasn't ever done before. And It doesn't require an intellectual understanding. Although an intellectual understanding can be helpful. Yeah. Two. At time idea where are you trying to get going where it's definitely not yep. Can't be helpful. As got fine. And so but we're trying to achieve the kind of mind that can experience these truths.

Capture these levels so I just need an undergo the type of transformation. That's what we're talking about. Yeah. In the meantime though part of the practice that is absolutely essential to bring your mind to to this condition. Is going to make your life enormously better Right. As soon as you start to practice. If you practice meditation by itself, you're gonna reach a certain point where it spells and a go because you need to practice morality ethics, keeping pre resets, product reflections. And even a some point you need to begin developing kindness detection and things like that.

In order for your meditation practice that reach you to the point where you can have this kind of breaks sure you can like my experience. But if you begin to practice those things, your life is gonna get better immediately. If you... If you keep the pre ups, your interactions with anyone else are going to improve. Yeah. And that's in fact. If you cultivate... And and not that you're gonna enjoy more peace of mind. If you if you practice slowly kindness, compassion, secretary Joy, then you are gonna experience more happiness, more content.

And then if you're practicing meditation as your mind for, you're able to practice these other things more effectively like, I'm more efficient. It all kind of works together, you know, and You don't need to be too focused on the end. Do you... You know, it's good to keep in mind where you're going. And steady on route. But you don't have to be folks on that is good in the beginning. And it good and middle as well as being good. Yeah. The only way, it won't be good also way long is if you leave now parts.

So. Right. If you don't develop concentration at time, it's gonna be a rough right. And if you don't... If you don't practice ethics and do things to curtail, that can fall the desire the version. Then you're not actually gonna get to the place of on having those insights that you need to have. Let alone even developing concentration and that needs that need to produce produce powerful sound. And as far as getting to that place of being able to clearly see exception and acknowledge the us of the self that you're so fond of, Nothing perhaps more than practicing lot of kind compassionate and that took.

It gives you. Our minds are such that they go out of the self center place really easily if we get them the chance get in the right hand direction. And that's why the practice of what kindness and flash does. It uses what's already there It's part of our booting nature to have what kinda con. So it's see exercise of it. And the more moments, the more hours, days, months, the more cumulative time that you spend, with your mind moving out of this trap self to a place of of loving and bracing. Others every other every kind of others, you, i just type with people, other things at all type the world as a whole, everything.

The more you do have. And but let's attached your mind is going to be to a self concept. The easier is going to be to see through it's a in nature and the easier emotionally is it's going to be less dramatic. It's going to be to let go over your attachment probably. So But this this path is it's a well integrated hold. It's not really something to kick and choose them needs to set you'd like and to to try just strip it down a streamline line at too much. I talked for awful long time here tonight to go And any final car the don't league here with some urgent things hanging in fine.

Listen. I was just I'm curious So what when would it be that there would be teachers? I've haven't haven't seen teachers? That would take potentially decades. You get through the the... you know, bit... That period of that period of the dark added of the soul. This... That's that's something I've heard that the teachers will say that, you know, took me ten or twenty years to progress through that better golf tradition that come from. Or is there mango, but once you're already in it, you don't have this on the top.

It's that much more difficult binding or we get every development. Well these between the people that experienced that strongly don't ever develop. You know, having to developed some sometime previously. But I don't know like ten or twenty years. I don't I I don't think I never heard anybody say that. But I be it would be tragic. It it couldn't be a very intense start matter to solve or they their so sense. Where they kill themselves? Yeah. Our owners you know, and she can you receive look for shop therapy and diaz said.

So I mean, they may be mistaken but... There they not I shouldn't say they say because might be. My mistake and interpretation that you're a mistake and understand. There may be a confusion between the du code analysis. The dark night sold comes from confronting these just disturbing crews. And the state of suffering that we all come to this path. And what they may be talking about is that then the state is suffering that brought them to the path. Was quite intense and that to ten to twenty years of practice before.

It's... What, was saying was her teacher? He was talking to that. I mean, what we'd what we've talking about had buy this to do on. Is that taking ten to twenty years. So that way that took. Decades for the then and it asked for other people. But then... I mean, that that was... I think a lot of... Think some of the people she mentioned seem like had come from like, the zen tradition, or it's like... Because she talked about ro too or leading groups. And we're going through this and i had no idea we're really baffled as how they handle it really taken off guard, but we're still teaching, but secretly, we're we're suffering do this And this was just one night conversation.

So i know i didn't get details about Have hear my experience said there's long good. Xander is is very un unsupported. It example. You know, and and I I can see that that that might be true, but in my experience and the people default now. This is not... This is phenomenon dialed into and maybe haven't has come fruition they have back out of it, and then you know, it's not uncommon. I know a number people whose experience basically for years because they could only do maybe one or two three to year.

You know? And every time they go on the turning floor or right into to it, and it was terrible, but it didn't get past it through too third and they gradually. Pull stuff back together and that next year or six months later. Same thing that they didn't do we got spread. But somebody continuously me that. I I'm very surprised because I don't see why. I mean, it actually me something else involved. You know, It's a reaction of the mine to something that the mind is rejecting. And as hard... As hard imagine in somebody's lined, both being able to grasp?

Secretary and steady ana state resistance to it at the same time. You so want. I, you know, is very difficult for me to know just... But I... I think they must be talking about something else. I really too. It could be... It can be painful and it can be difficult. But it's intense. You you know and And I when I talked to Willoughby, I had the impression data. I I really probably shouldn't talk about her, but it he didn't sound to me like, she was in the throughs with different down, but she had definitely experienced them and was experiencing mine's reaction to that.

Yeah. And so with her case even though, you know, I know she's ultimately spoken long time she had her. I would not say that she was in to dip they said. She was in she was in a a state of, you know. She didn't... She couldn't force herself to go back and meditate time she said down meditate. She accurate her. Right. So she came back into it, but you know, and then she had to deal with the after effects with that. So... But I think what you're maybe what they're talking about. Just clarify. Is a period of time between their first experience at least have the knowledge or suffering.

And when they were finally able to get past it. So it wouldn't have been a continuous I i looked down the experience about that. Coming out of again. But, you know, I know i scared by anyway you don't have to hear this. You really don't You might to some degree. You know, everybody's a little bit different. To degree to what you have attachments of the self cancer. You're gonna suffered. It's like, you know, it's terribly cab off went. Right? But town. It depends on the attachment, and it depends on the preparation and the rest of your practice.

And it's actually when do you get through it. And so obvious. It's hard to understand why it was sort different difficult first part. I'm very confident by what you said i what's what it's worth. Was it was birthday me. quiet it enough. I think yeah. So it's probably time.

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